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Thread: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

  1. #171
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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    By posting rational, well thought out arguments. Otherwise I'm there to point out the opposite. Given that, you can't escape.
    I mean the arms of the US, obviously. You know what we call someone that can't leave the arms of someone else?

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Because we incentivize it rather than make it unprofitable? Nothing like making big profits in sweatshop nations like Bangladesh that ban unions and kill 100s of workers in factory disasters.

    Doesn't it make you proud!
    You're right. We should just pull all of our factories out of Bangladesh and let their people starve.

  3. #173
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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Can't argue the merits of the policy. Got it.
    I already did and you came back with the basic talking point. Appologies for calling you on it.

    Meantime I can. Low corporate taxes produce basket cases like Ireland.
    No, they didn't, and you provided no evidence or even third party support for the proposition. All you had were some lefty EU parliament weenies complaining that ireland should increase taxes.

    And you want us to follow that road. Pathology? You're soaking in it.
    Right. I am advocating that you be Ireland by doing what every single other country in the world does and not taxing corporate income earned abroad at the corproate level because it causes exactly what you have seen it cause with Apple and others, and this is dumb policy.

    Straw man much?

    And just so you don't miss it, you have nothing here. Your "arguments" have no support, your leaps have no foundation, and your understanding of policy and economics seems woefully inadequate in this context.

    Again, you're simply being counterfactual. If companies can leave the US, then they already have. You act as if they've stayed here out of a sense of loyalty. That's sweet but not part of reality.
    No, you again seem to ignore the reality of a dynamic economy. Companies right now are in the state that is best for them right now. Change the numbers, or change the game, and incentives change. Leaving things where they are now will not have a major impact, even over time, though some companies may "tip" at some point so that the benefits of residency in the US stop outweighing the (completely unnecessary, inefficient and self-destructive) cost imposed on them by your dumb-ass tax on foreign earnings. But you change it so they can't legally avoid the tax by parking the money in a foreign sub, and you have changed the calculus, such that a lot more companies would decide it just isn't worth it to continue to maintain US residency.

    This is all pretty simple to understand, I would think.

    Companies that remain in the US paying US taxes should be rewarded by making sure companies that leave pay higher taxes, or at least the same. It's really that simply.
    except it's not. I just ran through a few easy examples, which you (again) ignored because thinking about this is not convenient for you.

    You keep talking about tax incentives but the most obvious one is staring you in the face: right now, this second Apple was better off taxwise by funnelling income to a Irish shell corp. So we punish that, increasing taxes and Apple, and thus rewarding companies that haven't engaged in this conduct.
    And then apple has 2 choices. Do what you want them to do and suck it up. Or leave. And in those circumstances, you stand to lose far mroe from apple leaving than it does, since it's shareholders are staring $40 billion in losses square in the face.

    Indeed, we probably could lower corporate taxes in the US if we raised taxes on the corporations who shirk paying by foreign spin offs and shells.
    You really don't get it. And if we had money trees we wouldn't need taxes at all.

    Yay! Money Trees!

  4. #174
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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Psssst: exactly -- who needs them if they don't pay taxes and the hire cheap labor overseas. You're catching on.
    Your poe act is getting tiresome, no one can be that much of a partisan robot.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony60 View Post
    The government makes the tax laws, not Apple. The government is the one that says, do this with your money, and you owe tax on it. Do something else, and you don't. So, now you think they should collect taxes on it anyway? That doesn't make any sense at all.

    Besides, Apple avoided $44 billion? That is a crapload of taxes for any company to be paying, above what they are already paying. If that was the case, we would have to fix that with a big tax cut. We are not here to serve this government, it's the other way around. People on the left need to get that through their collective heads.
    Funny, you call yourself a "Conservative" but you advocate for a very anti-free market system.

    Apple got away with not paying much taxes because it hired expensive lawyers and accountants to essentially find and create no nexus tax havens. You are praising what amounts to those with money can literally buy success over those without such funds. That we should encourage a very uneven playing field that favors those who will bend and possibly break the law over those who play within the rules.

    I take it you were cheering for Microsoft as it actively engaged in anti-capitalistic behaviors to stamp out competition at the expense of the consumer?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Without the US market Steve jobs would be steve jobless. This is why they should be paying to help upkeep the place they sell so much stuff.
    I think without the US market Steve Jobs would be dead... You know... Because he's dead.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I think without the US market Steve Jobs would be dead... You know... Because he's dead.
    no-hope-no-cash-no-jobs.jpg
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    That is something that I haven't exactly thought of. But at the same time, that is exactly what we are seeing in this country anyways. Countries like Apple moving money overseas and not paying taxes on it. Also, you have to consider, that foreign capital may withdraw earnings over a period of time,but it still represents an investment in domestic companies. Also, I get the hunch that the US would have less of a problem with foreign capital overwhelming domestic capital because most of the world's largest corporations are American anyways. I suppose the easiest fix here is to just reduce the corporate tax to a level like say 20% where companies like Apple have far less incentive to move money offshore. I agree with most of the rest of your points.
    So you are saying that they would go from paying next to nothing and be willing to pay 20%? On what planet? Apple and others have the perfect scam going on and in no way will they willingly move money back to the US when they can avoid paying taxes at all.

    The problem is not the % tax rate, but the ability to move money via accounting rules across borders.

    What Apple does, and others do is pretty simple and only available to such companies.

    Say you have sales of 1 billion and after costs there is 200 million left. What these companies then do, is to add an administrative fee, usually based on royalties, good will or franchise rights, that is equivalent or near equivalent to the 200 million profit. Now this must be paid to a company registered in Ireland or other very low tax country and wupti, a profit of 200 million is now near zero.

    Now some companies actually go beyond that and demand more than the profit, so that the company goes into the red... because then you can write off the loss.. aka a handout from the government.

    So it is not the tax % that is the problem, but the country of registration issue. Apple is a US registered company but its subsidiaries are all registered in Ireland where they have negotiated (in the 1980s) a tax rate of 2%, but in reality pay nothing because the papers that state where they are tax liable, basically making most of Apple a country-less company.

    To fix this is also quite simple.. make profit taxable in the country of the buyer and before "administrative fees" to a parent company.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    When the earnings are dividended out to US shareholders it is taxed.

    And from an industrial policy perspective, additional corporate taxes on foreign earnings is just retarded.
    From an industrial policy perspective, all taxes on manufacturing are retarded.

    Second, I see no rational reason why corporations or individuals should pay taxes on income derived outside of the US using no US based assets. It's one thing to use a US patent, it's another thing to have no US connection other than being part of the same firm.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So you are saying that they would go from paying next to nothing and be willing to pay 20%? On what planet? Apple and others have the perfect scam going on and in no way will they willingly move money back to the US when they can avoid paying taxes at all.

    The problem is not the % tax rate, but the ability to move money via accounting rules across borders.

    What Apple does, and others do is pretty simple and only available to such companies.

    Say you have sales of 1 billion and after costs there is 200 million left. What these companies then do, is to add an administrative fee, usually based on royalties, good will or franchise rights, that is equivalent or near equivalent to the 200 million profit. Now this must be paid to a company registered in Ireland or other very low tax country and wupti, a profit of 200 million is now near zero.

    Now some companies actually go beyond that and demand more than the profit, so that the company goes into the red... because then you can write off the loss.. aka a handout from the government.

    So it is not the tax % that is the problem, but the country of registration issue. Apple is a US registered company but its subsidiaries are all registered in Ireland where they have negotiated (in the 1980s) a tax rate of 2%, but in reality pay nothing because the papers that state where they are tax liable, basically making most of Apple a country-less company.

    To fix this is also quite simple.. make profit taxable in the country of the buyer and before "administrative fees" to a parent company.
    They don't pay next to nothing. They pay around 12% at the moment. And yes, maybe. An 8% reduction in taxes certainly doesn't have the same appeal as a 15% reduction. Maybe it isn't worth sheltering that extra $44B overseas if they could keep $35.2B of it instead of $28.6B. Maybe Apple decides that they can make up the difference by investing it in capital. Or maybe 20% is still too much, and 15% would be better. The point is, reducing the corporate tax is necessary if we want companies like Apple to keep their money in the US instead of sending it overseas.

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