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Thread: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

  1. #111
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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So we shouldn't tax corporations at all for our benefit?
    Certainly where corproations are owned entirely by US residents, all not taxing corproations do is allow a tax deferment on money that is retained by the corporation, since distributions as dividends are taxed. This is probably bad on the whole but would effectively subsidize investments in capital and expansion. It would also, however, play into all different sorts of tax deferment strategies and all savings would be funnelled through corps for tax reasons. While it presumably would increase US savings rates somewhat, which are too low, your weak economy and the need for taxes seem to make it a bad idea. And add into that non-US residents that own shares and may or may not pay US taxes on the dividends (I don't know your rules) and this would seem a nopn-starter.

    But that is different than LOWER rates, since the US seems to be among the least competitive corporate tax jurisdiction in the developed world. And again, the extra tax on foreign earnings is just stupid and frankly immoral.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Corporations are property. As such, they have no rights. Individuals have rights, a corporation is just property; and property is almost always taxed.
    And taxes affect behaviour and distributions of capital.

    So tax away. Just be mindful of the implications on individuals and overall economic productivity. You get taxed at 100% and you start taking a lot more vacation time. Stark example, but it's the same principle.

    the left needs to think things through better, and more honestly, before suggesting policy on economic matters. Goals you guys got down, and we can even assume for the sake of this discussion they are the right goals (which some of them are). But in respect to policy to achieve those goals, so much of what you guys say is just laughable and makes more symathetic people LESS willing to entertain your policy goals. Which is a shame.

  3. #113
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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    Certainly where corproations are owned entirely by US residents, all not taxing corproations do is allow a tax deferment on money that is retained by the corporation, since distributions as dividends are taxed. This is probably bad on the whole but would effectively subsidize investments in capital and expansion. It would also, however, play into all different sorts of tax deferment strategies and all savings would be funnelled through corps for tax reasons. While it presumably would increase US savings rates somewhat, which are too low, your weak economy and the need for taxes seem to make it a bad idea. And add into that non-US residents that own shares and may or may not pay US taxes on the dividends (I don't know your rules) and this would seem a nopn-starter.

    But that is different than LOWER rates, since the US seems to be among the least competitive corporate tax jurisdiction in the developed world. And again, the extra tax on foreign earnings is just stupid and frankly immoral.
    Lots of things the government does is immoral. But I just don't see the reason behind giving corporations a pass. We have some of the lowest corporate taxes around and our government is a corporate whore. They should at least have to pay for that access. There are many ways to rework the tax codes to present a fair level of taxation, but corporations will always cry foul because they're out for their bottom line and don't want to pay. Which is fine, less they had used any of the aggregate advantages our society had to offer such as tech or infrastructure. In that case, they again need to pay for it. No such thing as a free lunch. I'm probably the least sympathetic towards corporations when it comes to taxation given the problems faced by the People and the fact that a corporation is property. Not to say that we shouldn't address any true problem should it exist; but that there are far greater issues revolving around taxation that should be meted out first.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    People do have their right to property. But anarchy doesn't work, so we must have government on some level, and government isn't free. No such thing as a free lunch. A technologically advanced and educated nation such as our own, which produces quite a bit of modern convenience, doesn't come cheap. If you want to enjoy the benefits of this aggregated advancement, you have to pay for it. No way around it.

    Now there is certainly room to argue that the current levels of taxation are too high, or that the various things government is using money on are not things it was authorized to spend money on. But the base is still that taxation is necessary and if everyone avoids it, as you suggest, we will not have a nation much longer. We've already done this, it's a measured system.
    I'm not advocating anarchy, but I am advocating people protect themselves against theft from any source in their lives. Be that their neighbor or the government. If the government wishes to tax people they need to find a civil and an orderly way to do it that does not involve coercion.

    People have the right to their property and that means very clearly the government needs to stop taking money from people without their consent. If they are not smart enough to manage a system without coercion they are unfit and need to fall.

    To claim we have a right to property and then to claim the government has the authority to take our money by force is illogical.
    Last edited by Henrin; 05-22-13 at 07:32 PM.

  5. #115
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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    And taxes affect behaviour and distributions of capital.

    So tax away. Just be mindful of the implications on individuals and overall economic productivity. You get taxed at 100% and you start taking a lot more vacation time. Stark example, but it's the same principle.
    Tax at 0% and you're back to the dark ages. Those boundary conditions exist on both sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    the left needs to think things through better, and more honestly, before suggesting policy on economic matters. Goals you guys got down, and we can even assume for the sake of this discussion they are the right goals (which some of them are). But in respect to policy to achieve those goals, so much of what you guys say is just laughable and makes more symathetic people LESS willing to entertain your policy goals. Which is a shame.
    Perhaps, perhaps not. The rules, regulations, and oversights currently heavily favor the big corporations. So if you want me to be sympathetic towards corporate profit, you'll have to address the issues of our closed off, corporate capitalist system which has choked out free market principles and dynamics. If the system was open, and we had free market, I could agree more. But since the laws and regulations are bent in favor of the corporations, they can pay for that added benefit.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I'm not advocating anarchy, but I am advocating people protect themselves against theft from any source in their lives. Be that their neighbor or the government. If the government wishes to tax people they need to find a civil and orderly way to do it that does not involve coercion.

    People have the right to their property and that means very clearly the government needs to stop taking money from people without their consent. If they are not smart enough to manage a system without coercion they are unfit and need to fall.
    You may not advocate anarchy, but if you advocate aggregated action in avoiding taxes, then you advocate a non-functional government. But don't worry, you won't have anarchy for long; something worse will take the place of what we got now.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You may not advocate anarchy, but if you advocate aggregated action in avoiding taxes, then you advocate a non-functional government. But don't worry, you won't have anarchy for long; something worse will take the place of what we got now.
    If you do not wish people to desire to avoid taxes then stop making them feel like a victim. It seems pretty simple.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    If you do not wish people to desire to avoid taxes then stop making them feel like a victim. It seems pretty simple.
    Is it that simple? How do you do so? People will never like paying taxes, paying for things sucks. But you cannot have what we have today without it. There's no such thing as a free lunch, you have to pay.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    Working decently well in Canada, though we have work to go.

    Don't suppose you have any idea that corporate tax rates are not the reason Ireland ran into trouble? Assume not, since that would interfere wuith this sort of nonsense talking point that may work in the playground but doesn't do much in real life.
    Actually Ireland's rock bottom low corporate rates were cited as a major contributor to their collapse, by the very EU/IMF that bailed them out.

    Battered Ireland Clings to Its Low Taxes - Businessweek

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ax-131983.html

    You keep not getting your facts right.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Is it that simple? How do you do so? People will never like paying taxes, paying for things sucks. But you cannot have what we have today without it. There's no such thing as a free lunch, you have to pay.
    You make people not feel like a victim by treating government as anything else in the market. You do not protect property rights or liberty any other way.

    Btw, I never asked for all this stuff the government does. Why would I care to pay for all that crap?

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