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Thread: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

  1. #101
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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Didn't happen with Apple did it? Apple dumped a bunch of cash into a shell subsidiary in Ireland (it wasn't sellng 64% of its phones there, but that's where its cash went), paid a minimum foreign tax rate in Ireland, and paid nothing on the income here. Further, since Apple is stingey with diividends, the US didn't even get to tax that (which by the way are taxed so low that essentially this shell game allows earned corporate income to be transmuted in low rate dividend income).

    Tax global income and the shell game will stop.

    In contrast, if Apple really can sell more phones in Ireland and wants to pull up stakes and move there, let them. It ain't going to happen.

    This is the difference between real ecnomomic activity and the vast amount of transactions that have no economic purpose but to avoid taxes. With many large corporations, most of their energy is spent not in making real goods and services, but in avoiding paying taxes. It's inefficient and the real economy suffers.

    Hell even Reagan understood that when he reformed the 1986 tax code to get rid of tax shelters, separating passive and active income.
    They don't need to sell all their phones in Ireland to move there. ireland, like most countries in the world, are not dumb enough to tax income earned by its corporate residents outside of the country.

    And again, since the dumb proposal in this thread is that Apple is wrong in doing what it is doing and the US govenrment should change the law to confiscate that wealth reagrdless of whether it is patriated in your jurisdiction, you need to actually think though how this change in the status quo might impact on corporate decision making. Thus far, you are steadfastly refusing to do that.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    No, I mean people who understand how incentives affect behaviour and behaviour affects outcomes.

    And I, neither being rich nor a tax cheat, wouldn't trust the left on an economic issue even if I agreed with the policy objective (which I often do). because even where I 100% agree with leftists on policy, I am not naive enough to believe they have the slightest idea about how to actually achieve that objective. Almost invariably, their economic illiteracy and unwillingness to confront reality as it exists will result in a policy perscription so deluded, so out of touch with reality, that it could only cause harm to all involved while doing nothing (at best) to actually advance the goals that they are trying to advance.

    And this thread is a perfect illustration of that.
    Yes, yes, so the bottomline is give Apple an incentive to park assets in Ireland and avoid taxes. That's productive.

    Tax corporate income globally. Tax divdend income in the top bracket at top ordinary income rates. Create a new top bracket and tax it at 50% or higher. If need be tariff products from corps in tax havens.

    This will force the superwealthy to actually produce real goods and services that increase standards of living, rather than simply eek marginal dollars out of accounting tricks.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    They don't need to sell all their phones in Ireland to move there. ireland, like most countries in the world, are not dumb enough to tax income earned by its corporate residents outside of the country.

    And again, since the dumb proposal in this thread is that Apple is wrong in doing what it is doing and the US govenrment should change the law to confiscate that wealth reagrdless of whether it is patriated in your jurisdiction, you need to actually think though how this change in the status quo might impact on corporate decision making. Thus far, you are steadfastly refusing to do that.
    Pssst: Ireland went broke and had to be bailed out. How's that low tax strategy working for ya?

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Yes, yes, so the bottomline is give Apple an incentive to park assets in Ireland and avoid taxes. That's productive.

    Tax corporate income globally. Tax divdend income in the top bracket at top ordinary income rates. Create a new top bracket and tax it at 50% or higher. If need be tariff products from corps in tax havens.

    This will force the superwealthy to actually produce real goods and services that increase standards of living, rather than simply eek marginal dollars out of accounting tricks.
    Lol! They would stay in your country why? You really don't understand what competition means, do you?

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Yes, yes, so the bottomline is give Apple an incentive to park assets in Ireland and avoid taxes. That's productive.

    No. The bottom line is to remove the incentive for Apple to leave money rotting in Ireland by eliminating the taxes that would confiscate that wealth being patriated into the US, sicne that law is an extraordinary long reach and terrible policy anyways.

    Tax corporate income globally. Tax divdend income in the top bracket at top ordinary income rates. Create a new top bracket and tax it at 50% or higher. If need be tariff products from corps in tax havens.
    ok, so who is doing the taxes? The UN? Does it apply only to US-resident corproations or to all corproations even if they have no connection to the US at all? What about the corproation that owns my local car wash in Canada? Does it have to pay taxes to the US government? What if my local car wash expands into Buffalo? Are its Canadian earnings now subject to massive US corproate taxes even though it is a Canadian corporation owned by a Canadian family?

    Have you thought through any of this either as a static or dynamic exercise?

    As for dividends, I would encourage you to look at who owns shares in corporations. Who has IRAs in the US? Which unions have pension plans? What do you think they own?

    Buying into leftist propaganda about wealth doesn't relace your obligation to inquire rationally and learn on your own.

    beyond that, you seem to have a bit of a pickle about other people generating and earning money and using it on themselves. Not sure why you are so bitter that you prefer to focus on bringing down those who are successful rather than actually making things better, but would suggest that should not be the problem of those who invested, took risks and succeeded, whether that was in a profession that allowed them to earn a solid income or they took risks sufficient to earn substantial profits by delivering goods people wanted to buy.

    This will force the superwealthy to actually produce real goods and services that increase standards of living, rather than simply eek marginal dollars out of accounting tricks.
    no, this will cause the super wealthy to move to jurisdictions that understand investment is a fundamental requirement to a healthy, prosperous economy.

    And again, we in Canada are happy to have them.

  6. #106
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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Pssst: Ireland went broke and had to be bailed out. How's that low tax strategy working for ya?
    Working decently well in Canada, though we have work to go.

    Don't suppose you have any idea that corporate tax rates are not the reason Ireland ran into trouble? Assume not, since that would interfere wuith this sort of nonsense talking point that may work in the playground but doesn't do much in real life.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I advocate people hide money from a government that just takes money from its citizens without any sort of consent from the party being acted on. If the government sees it fit to form its tax system around such an uncivil and violent act that is their problem. I will still advocate people do what is in their power to resist. Furthermore, my statement is factual. People have a right to their property and as such all parties must get their consent if they are to take it. Yes, that means that people have a right to defend their property by hiding it from the thieves.
    People do have their right to property. But anarchy doesn't work, so we must have government on some level, and government isn't free. No such thing as a free lunch. A technologically advanced and educated nation such as our own, which produces quite a bit of modern convenience, doesn't come cheap. If you want to enjoy the benefits of this aggregated advancement, you have to pay for it. No way around it.

    Now there is certainly room to argue that the current levels of taxation are too high, or that the various things government is using money on are not things it was authorized to spend money on. But the base is still that taxation is necessary and if everyone avoids it, as you suggest, we will not have a nation much longer. We've already done this, it's a measured system.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    They don't pay up because they pass the cost down to people, ie. YOU. By taxing them all you do is employ accountants and create inefficiency, which again costs you more.
    So we shouldn't tax corporations at all for our benefit?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    No, corporations are not people, they are ideas.
    Corporations are property. As such, they have no rights. Individuals have rights, a corporation is just property; and property is almost always taxed.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #110
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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    People do have their right to property. But anarchy doesn't work, so we must have government on some level, and government isn't free. No such thing as a free lunch. A technologically advanced and educated nation such as our own, which produces quite a bit of modern convenience, doesn't come cheap. If you want to enjoy the benefits of this aggregated advancement, you have to pay for it. No way around it.

    Now there is certainly room to argue that the current levels of taxation are too high, or that the various things government is using money on are not things it was authorized to spend money on. But the base is still that taxation is necessary and if everyone avoids it, as you suggest, we will not have a nation much longer. We've already done this, it's a measured system.
    I for one agree with this. Just would respectfully submit that a tax on income earned abroad is bad policy and costs more in economic activity (and related taxes) than it generates. It is also a very unfair and unjust sort of tax from a moral perspective, since there is no real nexus to the US other than the paper residency of the corporation.

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