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Thread: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

  1. #91
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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    No, the proposal from many here is something broader - that the US government actually require taxes be paid even if the money is not patriated into the US.
    Yep, that's what we need to do to make tax avoidance impossible. Then the corps may as well stay in the US. They won't benefit from spin offs and foreign divisions.

    Again, you're missign the point. Corps that can leave have left. Corps that have spun off into tax havens have. They always optimize their tax avoidance. So we're punishing them, and that benefits the corps that haven't left.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Or place an embargo on said Tax Havens
    Do you two even realize he said you were shooting yourself in the foot already? What would shooting yourself in the other foot get you?

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    The money is brought back in the form of CEO salaries and shareholder dividends (the later of which we should tax at ordinary rates for the higher bracket).
    Except Apple is just sitting on the cash because of the extraordinary corporate tax that would go on even before the dividends are taxed.

    This policy you have is essentially cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    Forgotting the useless lefty talking point about "CEO salaries" (which is just this classist nonsense the left uses to avoid having to think about real life), again what people are proposing is to force US companies to pay US taxes on every dollar theyearn in Canada. So they earn $1 in Canada and pay 20% of that in taxes to the Canadian govenrments, then they bring back 80 cents to the US and have to pay 30% of that in taxes too. And then, of the 56 cents dividended to shareholders, another 15 cents or more can be yanked off in taxes.

    So why in hell is Wal-Mart or Home Depot or any other US-resident corproation expanding into Canada or Mexico or anywhere else, if they bear all the riskl of expanding but face this sort of confiscatory penalty if they succeed?

    And sure, you might believe that US companies should not be investing abroad, but that would make you economically illiterate.

    Again, the problem you are describing is illusory. Corporations already optimize their tax avoidance. Taxing their global income will just make that harder; it won't cause corporations to abandon the US -- they've already done that
    when the can.
    2 things:

    1. The existing system is already distortative and harmful to overlal US productivity and welfare.

    2. Tightening the system on US corporations operating abroad through subsidiaries will further tilt the playing field, since you have no right at all to tax global incomes of Canadian or Chinese or Japanese companies just because they have branches in the US (you taxing my commerce activity in Canada seems markedly worse than the tax issues that you declared independence over). So all you aredoing is f***ing your own companies up their bums.
    Last edited by CJ 2.0; 05-22-13 at 06:47 PM.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    Except Apple is just sitting on the cash because of the extraordinary corporate tax that would go on even before the dividends are taxed.

    This policy you have is essentially cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    Forgotting the useless lefty talking point about "CEO salaries" (which is just this classist nonsense the left uses to avoid having to think about real life), again what people are proposing is to force US companies to pay US taxes on every dollar theyearn in Canada. So they earn $1 in Canada and pay 20% of that in taxes to the Canadian govenrments, then they bring back 80 cents to the US and have to pay 30% of that in taxes too. And then, of the 56 cents dividended to shareholders, another 15 cents or more can be yanked off in taxes.

    So why in hell is Wal-Mart or Home Depot or any other US-resident corproation expanding into Canada or Mexico or anywhere else, if they bear all the riskl of expanding but face this sort of confiscatory penalty if they succeed?

    And sure, you might believe that US companies should not be investing abroad, but that would make you economically illiterate.



    Again, the problem you are describing is illusory. Corporations already optimize their tax avoidance. Taxing their global income will just make that harder; it won't cause corporations to abandon the US -- they've already done that when the can.
    You keep repeating the same mistake and refuse to acknowlege it.

    WHAT DO WE CARE IF WALMART EXPANDS INTO CANADA IF WE IN THE US DON"T BENEFIT BY GETTING MORE TAXES?

    Answer: not a wit. All you're saying is let's have a tax policy that benefit corporations (i.e., their wealthy owners and CEOs), for the hell of it.

    No thanks.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Or place an embargo on said Tax Havens
    What? There is a reason why no one trusts the left on economic issues.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    What? There is a reason why no one trusts the left on economic issues.
    You mean the rich and tax cheats don't

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    It sure does. What do I care if US corporations are competitive is they get all the benefits and don't pay taxes on it. They may as well be foreign corps.
    That you do not understand the economic benefits of earned income flowing into the US from foreign countries is only a testament to your lack of understanding of how economies actually work.

    Again, it is a shame that the left does not pl;ace more of a priority educating its folks about economics. They could accomplish so much mroe by using economics rather than denying reality. I don't know any other way to describe the willingness of the left to pretend economic reality doesn't exist than "anti-science", which applies just as much to the left on these issues as it does to the right on a whole host of things.

    Neither side is pro-science when reality interferes with what they want. And you want money earned by other people to flow for your own benefit and are willing to pretend the obvious results of your policy prescriptions will not only not get you what you want but will actually make it worse for you.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    You keep repeating the same mistake and refuse to acknowlege it.

    WHAT DO WE CARE IF WALMART EXPANDS INTO CANADA IF WE IN THE US DON"T BENEFIT BY GETTING MORE TAXES?

    Answer: not a wit. All you're saying is let's have a tax policy that benefit corporations (i.e., their wealthy owners and CEOs), for the hell of it.

    No thanks.
    Really? Are we pretending now that only the wealthy own shares? No pension funds, right? And no benefit at all from earnings coming into the US?

    I'm largely done here, but once again I just need to express my dismay at the economic illiteracy of the left and appeal to the rest of the community to understand that the left can never be trusted to advance sound, well-developed economic management principles.

    Cause they don't have a clue what they are talking about and, almost as dismayingly, they make Ayn Raynd sound like she does.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    That you do not understand the economic benefits of earned income flowing into the US from foreign countries is only a testament to your lack of understanding of how economies actually work.

    Again, it is a shame that the left does not pl;ace more of a priority educating its folks about economics. They could accomplish so much mroe by using economics rather than denying reality. I don't know any other way to describe the willingness of the left to pretend economic reality doesn't exist than "anti-science", which applies just as much to the left on these issues as it does to the right on a whole host of things.

    Neither side is pro-science when reality interferes with what they want. And you want money earned by other people to flow for your own benefit and are willing to pretend the obvious results of your policy prescriptions will not only not get you what you want but will actually make it worse for you.
    Didn't happen with Apple did it? Apple dumped a bunch of cash into a shell subsidiary in Ireland (it wasn't sellng 64% of its phones there, but that's where its cash went), paid a minimum foreign tax rate in Ireland, and paid nothing on the income here. Further, since Apple is stingey with diividends, the US didn't even get to tax that (which by the way are taxed so low that essentially this shell game allows earned corporate income to be transmuted in low rate dividend income).

    Tax global income and the shell game will stop.

    In contrast, if Apple really can sell more phones in Ireland and wants to pull up stakes and move there, let them. It ain't going to happen.

    This is the difference between real ecnomomic activity and the vast amount of transactions that have no economic purpose but to avoid taxes. With many large corporations, most of their energy is spent not in making real goods and services, but in avoiding paying taxes. It's inefficient and the real economy suffers.

    Hell even Reagan understood that when he reformed the 1986 tax code to get rid of tax shelters, separating passive and active income.
    Last edited by head of joaquin; 05-22-13 at 06:59 PM.

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    Re: Senate investigators: Apple sheltered $44 billion from taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    You mean the rich and tax cheats don't
    No, I mean people who understand how incentives affect behaviour and behaviour affects outcomes.

    And I, neither being rich nor a tax cheat, wouldn't trust the left on an economic issue even if I agreed with the policy objective (which I often do). because even where I 100% agree with leftists on policy, I am not naive enough to believe they have the slightest idea about how to actually achieve that objective. Almost invariably, their economic illiteracy and unwillingness to confront reality as it exists will result in a policy perscription so deluded, so out of touch with reality, that it could only cause harm to all involved while doing nothing (at best) to actually advance the goals that they are trying to advance.

    And this thread is a perfect illustration of that.

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