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Thread: DOJ tracked movements, phone records of Fox News reporter

  1. #31
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    Re: DOJ tracked movements, phone records of Fox News reporter

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    I dont think that was the purpose of the Patriot Act, which is the comment I was responding to. So no, while people would support uses of the Patriot Act to catch terrorists, they would not support uses of the Patriot act to catch political leaking.
    Okay, if you want to argue the technical point, that's great -- my point is that the PATRIOT Act represents a vast expansion of government authority and a shrinkage of personal liberty, so if you're okay with that then you shouldn't be complaining about this.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: DOJ tracked movements, phone records of Fox News reporter

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Im repeating what the constitution says. Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of the press. If they make it a crime for the press to pursue information, that is unconstitutional.
    There is more to US law than the text of the Constitution though. It grants free speech but if you can't shout obscenities in the street at 3am. It grants freedom of religion but you can't sacrifice a virgin. And it grants freedom of the press but that doesn't give them an exception to all laws.

    Constitutional restrictions about "making no law" are about laws specifically targeted (in word or practice) at the group involved. Laws aims at everyone, even if they restrict those groups too, don't count. For example, some religions permit polygamous marriage. It would be unconstitutional for a law to say "Mormons can't have more than one wife" but it is constitutional to say "Nobody can have more than one wife". Similarly, a general law against anyone conspiring to leak national secrets is not unconstitutional even though it limits journalists as well as everyone else.

    Beyond that, there is practical flexibility in the criminal system which does give journalists more freedom, even where they technically break minor laws in direct pursuit of their job but that can and should only go so far.

    Again, if a journalist broke in to your office and stole your computer, hacked your medical records and stalked your children, you wouldn't want them to get off because they said they were working on a story about you.

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    Re: DOJ tracked movements, phone records of Fox News reporter

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Okay, if you want to argue the technical point, that's great -- my point is that the PATRIOT Act represents a vast expansion of government authority and a shrinkage of personal liberty, so if you're okay with that then you shouldn't be complaining about this.
    And I say youre wrong. Apples and oranges.

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    Re: DOJ tracked movements, phone records of Fox News reporter

    Quote Originally Posted by HonestJoe View Post
    There is more to US law than the text of the Constitution though. It grants free speech but if you can't shout obscenities in the street at 3am. It grants freedom of religion but you can't sacrifice a virgin. And it grants freedom of the press but that doesn't give them an exception to all laws.

    Constitutional restrictions about "making no law" are about laws specifically targeted (in word or practice) at the group involved. Laws aims at everyone, even if they restrict those groups too, don't count. For example, some religions permit polygamous marriage. It would be unconstitutional for a law to say "Mormons can't have more than one wife" but it is constitutional to say "Nobody can have more than one wife". Similarly, a general law against anyone conspiring to leak national secrets is not unconstitutional even though it limits journalists as well as everyone else.

    Beyond that, there is practical flexibility in the criminal system which does give journalists more freedom, even where they technically break minor laws in direct pursuit of their job but that can and should only go so far.

    Again, if a journalist broke in to your office and stole your computer, hacked your medical records and stalked your children, you wouldn't want them to get off because they said they were working on a story about you.
    Shouting obscenities at 3am is not federal law. Life is also protected in the constitution, and again, theres no exceptions in the first amendment. Breaking and entering is not federal law either, other than preventing govt from doing it.

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    Re: DOJ tracked movements, phone records of Fox News reporter

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    And I say youre wrong. Apples and oranges.
    So, you're okay with a vast expansion of government authority and a shrinkage of personal liberty for the general population, but the violation of a specific sub-class's privacy (that of this reporter) is somehow more serious even though it too was done within the boundaries of the law?

    Explain?
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: DOJ tracked movements, phone records of Fox News reporter

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    So, you're okay with a vast expansion of government authority and a shrinkage of personal liberty for the general population, but the violation of a specific sub-class's privacy (that of this reporter) is somehow more serious even though it too was done within the boundaries of the law?

    Explain?
    I am ok with an expansion of authority with narrow intent and supervision (counter-terrorism). And that has nothing to do with freedom of the press.

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    Re: DOJ tracked movements, phone records of Fox News reporter

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    I am ok with an expansion of authority with narrow intent and supervision (counter-terrorism). And that has nothing to do with freedom of the press.
    I know we were sold the PATRIOT Act by describing it as a tool to be used specifically against terrorists, but the powers granted by that law are far from specific. It granted law enforcement a great many powers which were very flexible and non-specific in nature. It even attempted to do an end-run around judicial review on a number of levels.

    The investigation into James Rosen's movements, by contrast, was tightly focused and actually involved actual search warrants approved by actual judges. Additionally, the aim of the investigation wasn't stop Rosen from doing his job, but to determine if he broke the law when he did it.

    This isn't about Rosen's First Amendment rights at all, and the investigation into his activities is far more specific and far more respectful of his rights than the PATRIOT Act ever was for the rest of us.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  8. #38
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    Re: DOJ tracked movements, phone records of Fox News reporter

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    I am ok with an expansion of authority with narrow intent and supervision (counter-terrorism). And that has nothing to do with freedom of the press.
    You have bought into the sophistry of the Global War On Terror. Pity.

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    Re: DOJ tracked movements, phone records of Fox News reporter

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    You have bought into the sophistry of the Global War On Terror. Pity.
    Whatever.

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    Re: DOJ tracked movements, phone records of Fox News reporter

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    I know we were sold the PATRIOT Act by describing it as a tool to be used specifically against terrorists, but the powers granted by that law are far from specific. It granted law enforcement a great many powers which were very flexible and non-specific in nature. It even attempted to do an end-run around judicial review on a number of levels.

    The investigation into James Rosen's movements, by contrast, was tightly focused and actually involved actual search warrants approved by actual judges. Additionally, the aim of the investigation wasn't stop Rosen from doing his job, but to determine if he broke the law when he did it.

    This isn't about Rosen's First Amendment rights at all, and the investigation into his activities is far more specific and far more respectful of his rights than the PATRIOT Act ever was for the rest of us.
    Then go argue that in some patriot act dead end thread.

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