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Thread: Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Medicine

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    Re: Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Medi

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Maybe you haven't been paying attention. They've had two children die because they refused to provide medical care for them. What is it you don't understand about that?
    I'm still waiting for your proof, as I earlier requested, and tire having to repeat myself.

    your exact post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    These folks are about to find out about statutes regarding 'criminal negligence', 'negligent homicide', and 'depraved indifference'. I continue to be amused at the spirited defense put forward for people who allowed their second child to die because of their archaic and dangerous beliefs.

    Now prove it or shut the hell up.

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    Re: Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Me

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    Why couldn't it be a criminal act for a welfare mom to have another child.
    Because having a child is not and has never been considered to intentionally or recklessly result in harm to another. Withholding needed medical care does.

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    I don't see it as a criminal act but you want it to be because of your values, etc. The parents aren't happy their children died and I understand they have others at home. They acted as they saw fit and you disagree that they didn't do anything because that's what you believe. Fine, I just don't want you to have the force of law to do it. Face it, you just want revenge and suck their living children into public welfare.
    Yes. It's all part of my evil plan to put children on welfare. You've found me out. Oh wait... no, that's ridiculous. These people deserve to be punished because their actions are consitent with the definition of murder. So, just like every other murderer, they're going to be prosecuted and hopefully sent to prison.

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    Should the parents be allowed to discipline a child in a way you don't agree?
    There are probably plenty of ways that parents discipline children with which I wouldn't agree that also aren't criminal. If their actions vis-a-vis their children result in that child's death (this would include not just refraining from seeking life saving medical attention, but also starving a child, etc), they've committed a crime. These aren't my rules. They're well-established legal standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    Should a mother be able to abort a child at any point? (isn't that taking an extreme view of worrying about the interests of others).
    The fact that you're bringing up abortion in a debate about criminal liability suggests to me that you don't understand either issue very well. If you'd like to see the current standards for abortion under the law, and the reasoning that went into them, I suggest reading Roe v Wade and Planned Parenthood v Casey.

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    Re: Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Medi

    Proof of what? They denied their children simple medical care which inaction caused their death. They were already on probation after pleading guilty to involuntary manslaughter in 2011 in the death of their 2-year-old son, Kent, from pneumonia.
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    Re: Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Medi

    Quote Originally Posted by vendur View Post
    I'm still waiting for your proof, as I earlier requested, and tire having to repeat myself.

    your exact post:

    Now prove it or shut the hell up.
    My proof that they are about to find out about statutes regarding negligent homicide and depraved indifference? What proof is needed? They have two kids dead. It's too bad that part of the story doesn't concern you much.

    Thanks for participating, however.
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    Re: Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Medi

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Proof of what? They denied their children simple medical care which inaction caused their death. They were already on probation after pleading guilty to involuntary manslaughter in 2011 in the death of their 2-year-old son, Kent, from pneumonia.
    I don't understand what his ranting about proof is all about. I think he just ran out of things to say. They've already been proven guilty of one death. I think they'll find another set of charges on the second.

    Don't you find it strange the number of posters who are so concerned about what might happen to these 'poor parents', yet approach the deaths of the children as if this was just another parental right. Bizarre.
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    Re: Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Medi

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    I don't understand what his ranting about proof is all about. I think he just ran out of things to say. They've already been proven guilty of one death. I think they'll find another set of charges on the second.

    Don't you find it strange the number of posters who are so concerned about what might happen to these 'poor parents', yet approach the deaths of the children as if this was just another parental right. Bizarre.
    I think he wants proof that they refused to provide any medical treatment, which is stupid because they freely admit that they belong to a cult that demands it's members not go to the doctor.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Medi

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I disagree with their belief against medical treatment, but it isn't my place to tell them what to believe.

    The argument on whether to allow them to deny medical treatement to their child is a more sticky problem. I have some sympathy for them, but a child dying from something that could probably have been readily cured by modern medicine is pretty appalling. If the child was old enough to articulate whether he wished to adhere to his parent's beliefs of be treated, that would be a bit different, but in both cases they were too young to do so.

    While I am very reluctant to let the State intervene in the parent-child relationship, it can be argued that this amounts to negligence at least.

    I feel the same way about people who avoid doctors due to a belief that herbs, "holistic" medicine and/or shamanistic practices, acupuncture, whatever... are their preferred treatment... if that's what they want to do as an adult fine, but I have deep reservations about letting a child die for their parent's seemingly irrational beliefs.

    It seems a little odd, even suspicious, that they managed to lose TWO small children in four years time, even WITHOUT a doctor... I mean in my family we don't run to the doc for every little thing but losing two in four years seems like either mighty bad luck or suspiciously bad luck...
    My personal opinion of the matter, is they should be left alone unless it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt that their actions directly lead to the death of their children ie murder or the like. If their children died simply from a result of INACTION then they should be left alone. Jailing these people does nothing. They don't believe in doctors and while most people would consider it insane not to take advantage of modern medicine they should not be forced to go against their beliefs. Further as they are the parents it is their rights to make the decisions for their children regardless OUR feelings on the matter. Right wrong or indifferent, it is NOT our place to make those judgments without taking on the corresponding responsibility and accountability. If the state or the community believes these children were in immanent danger then they should have taken action to remove the children from their parents custody.

    For those who want them jailed, I ask you this, for what point? To change them? To make them repentant? They believe so much in their religion they let their own children die and are willing to defy the courts. That's more belief then most I'll wager. There's no point in jailing these people as they are not a danger to the community at large. Jailing them is petty narcissistic bull****. They should be left alone to live their lives in peace.
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    Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Because having a child is not and has never been considered to intentionally or recklessly result in harm to another. Withholding needed medical care does.



    Yes. It's all part of my evil plan to put children on welfare. You've found me out. Oh wait... no, that's ridiculous. These people deserve to be punished because their actions are consitent with the definition of murder. So, just like every other murderer, they're going to be prosecuted and hopefully sent to prison.



    There are probably plenty of ways that parents discipline children with which I wouldn't agree that also aren't criminal. If their actions vis-a-vis their children result in that child's death (this would include not just refraining from seeking life saving medical attention, but also starving a child, etc), they've committed a crime. These aren't my rules. They're well-established legal standards.



    The fact that you're bringing up abortion in a debate about criminal liability suggests to me that you don't understand either issue very well. If you'd like to see the current standards for abortion under the law, and the reasoning that went into them, I suggest reading Roe v Wade and Planned Parenthood v Casey.
    I reject the standards of discussion you want me to follow on this thread.
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    Re: Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Me

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    I reject the standards of discussion you want me to follow on this thread.


    You mean the law? Okay.

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    Re: Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Me

    Perhaps the adults got sick of the child and used religon as a exeuse not to take the kid the doctore and hope they can get away with murder by just getting probation again or they are extremly stupid , either way a child is dead

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