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Thread: Nonpartisan review concludes Bush knowingly ordered torture

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    Re: Nonpartisan review concludes Bush knowingly ordered torture

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Actually, they ARE infringements.

    Which is neither here, nor there, since foreign fighters aren't protected under The Constitution. It's the law...live with it.
    How very strict constitutionalist of you!
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    Re: Nonpartisan review concludes Bush knowingly ordered torture

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Actually, they ARE infringements.

    Which is neither here, nor there, since foreign fighters aren't protected under The Constitution. It's the law...live with it.

    Actually they are as there is that whole bit about international treaties signed by the President and approved by Congress are of equal value to the Constitution

    Treaties as Law of the Land - United States Constitution

    Chief Justice Marshall in 1829: “A treaty is, in its nature, a contract between two nations, not a legislative act. It does not generally effect, of itself, the object to be accomplished; especially, so far as its operation is intraterritorial; but is carried into execution by the sovereign power of the respective parties to the instrument.”

    “In the United States, a different principle is established. Our constitution declares a treaty to be the law of the land. It is, consequently, to be regarded in courts of justice as equivalent to an act of the legislature, whenever it operates of itself, without the aid of any legislative provision. But when the terms of the stipulation import a contract—when either of the parties engages to perform a particular act, the treaty addresses itself to the political, not the judicial department; and the legislature must execute the contract, before it can become a rule for the Court.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Nonpartisan review concludes Bush knowingly ordered torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Actually they are as there is that whole bit about international treaties signed by the President and approved by Congress are of equal value to the Constitution
    Which treaty are you talking about?
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    Re: Nonpartisan review concludes Bush knowingly ordered torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    Water boarding certainly is torture.
    It's not, and even if it were I would still suport it because it's an effective means of getting information.

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    Re: Nonpartisan review concludes Bush knowingly ordered torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    There's a specific program in the military called SERE which trains special ops soldiers in how to resist torture tactics.

    So... the answer is "yes."
    There are diferent levels of that school and all deploied soldiers take at least the 9hr online version or more deppending on their capture risk.

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    Re: Nonpartisan review concludes Bush knowingly ordered torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It's not,
    Yes, it is.


    and even if it were I would still suport it because it's an effective means of getting information.
    Okay.
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    Re: Nonpartisan review concludes Bush knowingly ordered torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It's not, and even if it were I would still suport it because it's an effective means of getting information.

    Says who?

    Ex-FBI Interrogator: Torture "Ineffective" - CBS News
    A former FBI man who interrogated an al Qaeda leader said Wednesday extreme techniques used by the Bush administration were "ineffective, slow and unreliable" and caused the prisoner to stop talking.

    Ali Soufan, testifying to a Senate panel behind a screen to hide his identity, said that his interrogation team obtained a "treasure trove" of information from Abu Zubaydah using a non-threatening approach that outwitted the detainee - even getting him to talk by using his childhood nickname.

    Soufan said his team had to step aside when CIA contractors took over, using simulated drowning, sleep deprivation and other harsh methods. He said those techniques caused the prisoner to "shut down."
    Study: U.S. Torture Techniques Unethical, Ineffective | LiveScience
    Prolonged sleep deprivation, forced nudity and painful body positions are some of the "enhanced interrogation techniques" that the U.S. government approved after Sept. 11, 2001. Three doctors who advocate human rights argue that not only are these methods unethical, but the scientific basis used to validate them was flawed.

    The trio, whose policy critique appears today (Jan. 6) in the journal Science, reviewed congressional records and documents from the Department of Justice and the CIA. They found that some of the evidence used to justify enhanced interrogation techniques (EITs) came from studies of U.S. soldiers who underwent SERE training — for "survival, evasion, resistance and escape," exercises that included EITs and were meant to prepare them to survive capture and resist torture. Medical experts involved in those studies, which took place prior to the 9/11 attacks, concluded EITs were "safe, legal and effective," said Scott Allen, a professor of medicine at Brown University and co-author of the critique.
    Waterboarding is torture
    McCain: Japanese Hanged For Waterboarding - CBS News
    Republican presidential candidate John McCain reminded people Thursday that some Japanese were tried and hanged for torturing American prisoners during World War II with techniques that included waterboarding.

    "There should be little doubt from American history that we consider that as torture otherwise we wouldn't have tried and convicted Japanese for doing that same thing to Americans," McCain said during a news conference.
    History supports McCain's stance on waterboarding
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Nonpartisan review concludes Bush knowingly ordered torture

    Those who advocate torture have the onus on them to express what limits to torture should be used...and why.

    Pulling fingernails? Severe electric shock?

    Rape?

    If not...why not?

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    Re: Nonpartisan review concludes Bush knowingly ordered torture

    Waterboarding is indeed torture. There is no legitimate argument to say otherwise.

    It is clearly torture. You are pouring water over an individual to simulate drowning....that is torture. Plain and simple.

    Our country should NEVER torture under any circumstances. I don't care what information they may have...we live by a set of values in this country. We do NOT torture...period. Inhumane acts that we would find disgusting if used on our citizens shouldn't be used by our government.

    Torture goes against everything we are supposed to stand for and to advocate it is disgusting.
    Libertarian and Atheist...wow I'm a hated man.

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