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Joe Manchin says on verge of gun deal

Jerry said:
Then you don't need new laws. I'm glad I could finally talk you out of new gun controls.
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The new laws (if passed) will reduce the numbers of guns being sold without any questions asked.
 
"The agreement will “prevent criminals and the mentally ill from getting firearms and harming people,” Senator Joe Manchin, a West Virginia Democrat, told reporters today. Senator Pat Toomey, a Pennsylvania Republican, joined him at a news conference in Washington."

“I don’t consider criminal background checks to be gun control; it’s just common sense,” Toomey said. “It’s the people who fail a criminal or mental-health background check that we don’t want having guns.”

Toomey’s backing may help draw the support of Republicans and Democrats from pro-gun states. Manchin has an “A” rating from the pro-gun-rights National Rifle Association. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a Nevada Democrat, scheduled a procedural vote tomorrow on the gun legislation, which also would crack down on firearms trafficking and increase funding for school safety."

See the video of the announcement of the proposed bipartisan background check law here -

Senators Announce Agreement to Expand Gun Checks - Bloomberg
 
Catawba said:
The new laws (if passed) will reduce the numbers of guns being sold without any questions asked.
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How?

Walk me through the process. Let's say that I have a gun that you would like to buy. Let's say that you happen to be in SD and we meet up. What happens?
 
Catawba said:
The new laws (if passed) will reduce the numbers of guns being sold without any questions asked.
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It's interesting how people with no clue how firearms transactions occur legally from citizen to citizen assume the worst and expect law abiding citizens to comply with their wishes even though all the law would do is restrict firearms enthusiast their 2nd Ammensment rights.I can understand why the antis are so hopeful in this thread about the Senate taking up the debate about gun control first. I'm also pretty sure their party will be over once the bill hits the House floor.
 
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Jerry said:
How?

Walk me through the process. Let's say that I have a gun that you would like to buy. Let's say that you happen to be in SD and we meet up. What happens?
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I didn't say it would completely stop the number of guns being sold with no questions asked. But by not allowing guns to be sold at gun shows in 40 states and online without a background check, it will certainly reduce the number of guns being sold without background checks. That is why the majority of people support it. It is only the far right that opposed background checks.
 
Catawba said:
I didn't say it would completely stop the number of guns being sold with no questions asked.
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I'm not claiming you said such. I'm just asking a question. If you and I met up in SD so you could by a gun I have for sale, what happens? How do we perform the transaction?

Catawba said:
But by not allowing guns to be sold at gun shows in 40 states and online without a background check, it will certainly reduce the number of guns being sold without background checks.
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No it will shift people over to the no-NICS methods.

No one is forced to buy a gun at a gun show or online. You're assuming the transaction would occur either way, and that's not true for any commodity. People will just exchange contact information and meet up away from gun shows and the internet and make the sale.
 
Jerry said:
I'm not claiming you said such. I'm just asking a question. If you and I met up in SD so you could by a gun I have for sale, what happens? How do we perform the transaction?
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The new bipartisan compromise bill does not affect your scenario, other than by limiting the number of guns bought at gun shows across the country and online and resold on the street.


No it will shift people over to the no-NICS methods.
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Only the far right believes that guns aren't bought for cash with no questions asked at gun shows across the country and resold on the street.
 
Catawba said:
The new bipartisan compromise bill does not affect your scenario, other than by limiting the number of guns bought at gun shows across the country and online and resold on the street.
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Have you read the law to know that for sure? Because I keep hearing that the new law will affect "all private sales". I'm not hearing anything about only gun shows and online classified adds being affected. I haven't found the text of the law to know for myself either way. If you could quote a portion of the actual law text which says this I would be appreciative.

But here's a related question for you: What if I posted my gun on Craigslist and that's how you found out about it? How would we proceed with the transaction?

Catawba said:
Only the far right believes that guns aren't bought for cash with no questions asked at gun shows across the country and resold on the street.
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See that's funny to me because here in the far-right-red state of SD we sometimes have gun shows on the street. Seriously we regularly block off sections of Main for car Cool Summer Nights and all sorts of events.
 
Jerry said:
Have you read the law to know that for sure? Because I keep hearing that the new law will affect "all private sales". I'm not hearing anything about only gun shows and online classified adds being affected. I haven't found the text of the law to know for myself either way. If you could quote a portion of the actual law text which says this I would be appreciative.

But here's a related question for you: What if I posted my gun on Craigslist and that's how you found out about it? How would we proceed with the transaction?


See that's funny to me because here in the far-right-red state of SD we sometimes have gun shows on the street. Seriously we regularly block off sections of Main for car Cool Summer Nights and all sorts of events.
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Then you haven read the OP, or the updates I've provide on the bipartisan bill that get its initial Senate vote tomorrow. See below, and go back and read the OP.



Catawba said:
"The agreement will “prevent criminals and the mentally ill from getting firearms and harming people,” Senator Joe Manchin, a West Virginia Democrat, told reporters today. Senator Pat Toomey, a Pennsylvania Republican, joined him at a news conference in Washington."

“I don’t consider criminal background checks to be gun control; it’s just common sense,” Toomey said. “It’s the people who fail a criminal or mental-health background check that we don’t want having guns.”

Toomey’s backing may help draw the support of Republicans and Democrats from pro-gun states. Manchin has an “A” rating from the pro-gun-rights National Rifle Association. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a Nevada Democrat, scheduled a procedural vote tomorrow on the gun legislation, which also would crack down on firearms trafficking and increase funding for school safety."

See the video of the announcement of the proposed bipartisan background check law here -

Senators Announce Agreement to Expand Gun Checks - Bloomberg
Click to expand...
 
Catawba said:
Then you haven read the OP, or the updates I've provide on the bipartisan bill that get its initial Senate vote tomorrow. See below, and go back and read the OP.
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Your "update" didn't provide the information I was looking for.

So about that transaction....you see a gun I have for sale online, how do we complete the transaction under the new law?

The way it works today is:
  • we meet up
  • agree on a price
  • you pay me cash
  • I give you the gun
  • have a nice day.
What changes?
 
Jerry said:
Your "update" didn't provide the information I was looking for.

So about that transaction....you see a gun I have for sale online, how do we complete the transaction under the new law?

The way it works today is:
  • we meet up
  • agree on a price
  • you pay me cash
  • I give you the gun
  • have a nice day.
What changes?
Click to expand...

What changes is that if the law is passed those with criminal history or mental defect, across the the country, will not be able to walk into their neighborhood gun show and buy guns for cash with no questions asked. We will have to wait to see how it will affect online sales after they get the details worked out.
 
Catawba said:
What changes is that if the law is passed those with criminal history or mental defect, across the the country, will not be able to walk into their neighborhood gun show and buy guns for cash with no questions asked. We will have to wait to see how it will affect online sales after they get the details worked out.
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What stops them?

Let's say I have some kind of disqualifying criteria you can't see with the naked eye. I go into a gun show, I see a gun I like from a private seller, I want to buy the gun. What occurs?

What occures at gun shows today:
Me: "I would like to buy that gun, please."
Seller: "Ok, that'll be $XXX."
Me: *pays seller*
Seller: *hands me the gun*
Me: Thanks, have a good one."
Seller: "Thanks for your business."

What changes?
 
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I know you know the answer, Catawba. We all know the answer. Why don't you want to say it?
 
Catawba said:
What changes is that if the law is passed those with criminal history or mental defect, across the the country, will not be able to walk into their neighborhood gun show and buy guns for cash with no questions asked. We will have to wait to see how it will affect online sales after they get the details worked out.
Click to expand...


I am still trying to figure out what has changed in our society that we need all these different gun laws. I grew up in the 50’s, as a kid I could go to town to our local Western Auto and buy shells for my .410 with no questions asked. I remember at the age of 15 or 16 buying my first 12 gauge. Yet there were no Newtown’s or other mass murders or rampages. There were very few gun laws period.

Society has changed tremendously, some for the better, some not so good. But somewhere in all those changes has to be the reason why society breeds characters like this Holmes fellow. Finding that reason or reasons would prevent more of these things from happening than all the additional gun laws one could imagine.
 
Jerry said:
What stops them?
Click to expand...

The threat of prison time and fines for sellers that sell guns at gun shows without a background check.

Let's say I have some kind of disqualifying criteria you can't see with the naked eye. I go into a gun show, I see a gun I like from a private seller, I want to buy the gun. What occurs?
What occures at gun shows today:
Me: "I would like to buy that gun, please."
Seller: "Ok, that'll be $XXX."
Me: *pays seller*
Seller: *hands me the gun*
Me: Thanks, have a good one."
Seller: "Thanks for your business."

What changes?
Click to expand...

Under the law you would have to complete a background check so your disqualifying criteria would be discovered and you would not be sold a gun.
 
Perotista said:
I am still trying to figure out what has changed in our society that we need all these different gun laws. I grew up in the 50’s, as a kid I could go to town to our local Western Auto and buy shells for my .410 with no questions asked. I remember at the age of 15 or 16 buying my first 12 gauge. Yet there were no Newtown’s or other mass murders or rampages. There were very few gun laws period.

Society has changed tremendously, some for the better, some not so good. But somewhere in all those changes has to be the reason why society breeds characters like this Holmes fellow. Finding that reason or reasons would prevent more of these things from happening than all the additional gun laws one could imagine.
Click to expand...



Increased accessibility to weapons meant for killing people not animals. We have 300 million guns in the country now. And shotguns are no longer the gun of choice for criminals and mass murderers. And a society that has taught its young through our foreign policy to solve our differences with others with guns. Might makes right!
 
Catawba said:
The threat of prison time and fines for sellers that sell guns at gun shows without a background check.
Click to expand...
Regular people don't have access NICS. Here's the number, call and try to do a background check on yourself: 1-877-FBI-NICS (324-6427)

Your first obstacle is that private sellers literally cannot perform a background check even if the law requires them to and they want to comply in every way.

Catawba said:
Under the law you would have to complete a background check so your disqualifying criteria would be discovered and you would not be sold a gun.
Click to expand...
How will law enforcement ever know any transaction even occurred? And let's say they arrest someone with a gun on them, how does law enforcement know a background check was don when they bought the gun?
 
Jerry said:
Regular people don't have access NICS. Here's the number, call and try to do a background check on yourself: 1-877-FBI-NICS (324-6427)
Your first obstacle is that private sellers literally cannot perform a background check even if the law requires them to and they want to comply in every way.
Click to expand...

Good thing they though of this and have suggested having the FFL dealers, also present at gun shows, run the background checks!

How will law enforcement ever know any transaction even occurred? And let's say they arrest someone with a gun on them, how does law enforcement know a background check was don when they bought the gun?
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Cruise gun shows undercover and bust any selling guns without a background check. After a few people go to prison, there will be fewer that take that risk.
 
Catawba said:
Increased accessibility to weapons meant for killing people not animals. We have 300 million guns in the country now. And shotguns are no longer the gun of choice for criminals and mass murderers. And a society that has taught its young through our foreign policy to solve our differences with others with guns. Might makes right!
Click to expand...

You may be right about the accessibility of guns available to kill people. All the guns I owned were used for hunting with the exception of the .38 I have. I have had no desire to own an AK-47 or an M-16 or a glock. Although I have given plenty of thought of acquiring an M1911 .45, but in the end I decided against it as I would only use it for target practice.

I can remember shotguns and rifles in gun racks inside the pickups driven by the teachers to my old school. But like Biden, if someone ever wanted to break in to my place, my shot guns would provide me with my best home defense even though I keep the .38 loaded with hollow points. My aim doesn’t have to be right on, close is good enough and I would have no doubt I would be a bit nervous when confronting that break in criminal.

I am not sure it is your might makes right that has caused a lot of these rampages. It seems to me the warning signs were present way before these kids did their thing. It make me wonder who is raising these youngsters today?
 
Catawba said:
Good thing they though of this and have suggested having the FFL dealers, also present at gun shows, run the background checks!
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FFL have to use ATF form 4473 to conduct a transfer, and that creates a registry, so that's not acceptable.

Catawba said:
Cruise gun shows undercover and bust any selling guns without a background check. After a few people go to prison, there will be fewer that take that risk.
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Just do that in the first place to test private sellers if they're selling to people who they think may not pass a NICS and forget all about any kind of new law then.
 
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Perotista said:
You may be right about the accessibility of guns available to kill people. All the guns I owned were used for hunting with the exception of the .38 I have. I have had no desire to own an AK-47 or an M-16 or a glock. Although I have given plenty of thought of acquiring an M1911 .45, but in the end I decided against it as I would only use it for target practice.

I can remember shotguns and rifles in gun racks inside the pickups driven by the teachers to my old school. But like Biden, if someone ever wanted to break in to my place, my shot guns would provide me with my best home defense even though I keep the .38 loaded with hollow points. My aim doesn’t have to be right on, close is good enough and I would have no doubt I would be a bit nervous when confronting that break in criminal.

I am not sure it is your might makes right that has caused a lot of these rampages. It seems to me the warning signs were present way before these kids did their thing. It make me wonder who is raising these youngsters today?
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People that advocate settling differences with guns evidently.
 
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