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Joe Manchin says on verge of gun deal

Bob Blaylock said:
In the same sense that if a robber takes my wife's purse, it's a win for me if I am allowed to keep my wallet.
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I love these. First its rape now its theft! Love it!
so this is what im getting from all this: "we didnt get everything we wanted (or didnt want)" :boohoo:
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Keep on reading: "although purchases of non-automatic firearms are legal in most jurisdictions without a criminal background check, if purchased from a private seller who is not in the business of regularly selling firearms"
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That's not a full-auto firearm. Your video was not about full-auto firearms.

And it's still illegal to sell when you think the buyer wouldn't pass NICS.
 
iguanaman said:
So it is illegal to sell a gun to someone you THINK is a felon. Is that a joke law? How do you prove what someone is thinking?
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In this case we have it on video.

iguanaman said:
Now I see why you all say we don't enforce the laws we have now. It's a joke on the rest of us. They are unenforceable and specifically written that way. LOL
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That's right, these laws are written in such a way that they cannot be enforced. Like this new NICS for private sales: that law cannot be enforced....without registration of all firearms. Registration is the goal, because you have to have registration in order to carry out confiscation.
 
Jerry said:
That's not a full-auto firearm. Your video was not about full-auto firearms.
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The rest of the quote talks about "NON-automatic" firearms. The video talks about all guns semi auto and auto guns alike.


And it's still illegal to sell when you think the buyer wouldn't pass NICS.
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:lamo
"Thinks". :lamo
Talking about making a law weak on purpose.
 
Its looking pretty good that there will actually be a vote on this in the Senate and each Senator is going to have to take a stand on background checks, one way or the other. This going to be interesting and could have residual effects in the 2014 election!
 
TheDemSocialist said:
The video talks about all guns semi auto and auto guns alike.
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You cannot buy a full-auto gun at a gun show.

Your video tells you that it's illegal to sell to someone you believe wouldn't pass an NICS. So, the easy answer is to make examples out of sellers who brake the law.
 
Jerry said:
You cannot buy a full-auto gun at a gun show.
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I know i stated that...


Your video tells you that it's illegal to sell to someone you believe wouldn't pass an NICS. So, the easy answer is to make examples out of sellers who brake the law.
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SO how do you punish someone who "thought" wrong?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
SO how do you punish someone who "thought" wrong?
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An investigator uses a hidden camera and poses as a buyer to capture a vendor stating that he doesn't care that the undercover investigator says cannot pass an NICS. Then the investigator makes the sale, then arrests the vendor in front of everyone making sure everyone knows why, the ATF confiscates his inventory and brings him up on charges.
 
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Jerry said:
An investigator use a hidden camera and pose as a buyer to capture a vendor stating that he doesn't care that the undercover investigator cannot pass an NICS. Then the investigator makes the sale, then arrests the vendor in front of everyone making sure everyone knows why, you confiscate his inventory and bring him up on charges.
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What happens beyond the investigation to the rest of 99.999999999999999% of sellers and buyers? How does one "think" that someone might not pass the check? How does one prosecute someone who "thought" wrong? Sounds like a weak law made on purpose...
 
TheDemSocialist said:
What happens beyond the investigation to the rest of [the] of sellers and buyers?
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More enforcement, as required.

TheDemSocialist said:
How does one "think" that someone might not pass the check?
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Ask. "Do you believe you can pass a background check?" Didn't you watch your video? The investigator told a vendor that he couldn't pass a background check and then the vendor refused to sell to him saying it was illegal.

This is super simple stuff.
 
Catawba said:
Its looking pretty good that there will actually be a vote on this in the Senate and each Senator is going to have to take a stand on background checks, one way or the other. This going to be interesting and could have residual effects in the 2014 election!
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It definitely will. Gun Owners have a long history of long memories. Just ask Mr. Clinton and the Democratic controlled Congress of 1993-94 about that.

Regardless of whether or not I agree with anything in that bill, it's a complete and total waste of time. Even if it was to pass and be signed into law, it would be ignored, just like all the existing firearms legislation that we have out there already. It's a political grandstanding ploy and nothing more. Besides, many of us gunowners would simply ignore the new legislation anyway.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
I know i stated that...



SO how do you punish someone who "thought" wrong?
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First, you beat them to death with political correctness. Then, you accuse them of every vile thing on earth and spread it across the media. Finally, you point out that they are old, white, and reactionary, they don't pay their fair share, and they hide money somewhere. That ought to do it.
 
humbolt said:
First, you beat them to death with political correctness. Then, you accuse them of every vile thing on earth and spread it across the media. Finally, you point out that they are old, white, and reactionary, they don't pay their fair share, and they hide money somewhere. That ought to do it.
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I am impressed with how effortlessly you cover all the important things that Dems need to remember! It's a gift few have.... :clap: :thumbs:
 
polgara said:
I am impressed with how effortlessly you cover all the important things that Dems need to remember! It's a gift few have.... :clap: :thumbs:
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Well, I have the play book. I colored all the pictures in a long time ago and had it framed cause I stayed inside the lines on that one. It's hard to forget success like that.
 
humbolt said:
Well, I have the play book. I colored all the pictures in a long time ago and had it framed cause I stayed inside the lines on that one. It's hard to forget success like that.
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My sides still hurt from laughing at this response... :good_job:
 
Jerry said:
An investigator uses a hidden camera and poses as a buyer to capture a vendor stating that he doesn't care that the undercover investigator says cannot pass an NICS. Then the investigator makes the sale, then arrests the vendor in front of everyone making sure everyone knows why, the ATF confiscates his inventory and brings him up on charges.
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Simple huh...LOL. No wonder there are so few prosecutions and even in your scenario I doubt they could get an conviction. All the dealer has to say is that he thought the agent was joking because no real felon would admit such a thing. It's all about what the dealer thought isn't it?
 
iguanaman said:
Simple huh...LOL. No wonder there are so few prosecutions and even in your scenario I doubt they could get an conviction. All the dealer has to say is that he thought the agent was joking because no real felon would admit such a thing. It's all about what the dealer thought isn't it?
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That is for a jury to decide.
 
humbolt said:
First, you beat them to death with political correctness. Then, you accuse them of every vile thing on earth and spread it across the media. Finally, you point out that they are old, white, and reactionary, they don't pay their fair share, and they hide money somewhere. That ought to do it.
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What the hell are you talking about?
 
Jerry said:
More enforcement, as required.


Ask. "Do you believe you can pass a background check?" Didn't you watch your video? The investigator told a vendor that he couldn't pass a background check and then the vendor refused to sell to him saying it was illegal.

This is super simple stuff.
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How can you prove if someone asked that question or not? Word of mouth dont often hold up in law. Does one have to ask that question?
So it seems your for "word of mouth background checks" that can easily be lied about. All one have to do to answer that "verbal background check" is lie and say no. Why not just make it a legal law enforced background check?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
How can you prove if someone asked that question or not?
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You linked to an undercover investigator. This is exactly like police departments who use highschool kids to try and buy cigarettes so they can catch the vendors who are braking the law. That's how you enforce these things.

TheDemSocialist said:
Why not just make it a legal law enforced background check?
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In post #17 you said it wouldn't help prevent gun crime.

Background checks are about registration, why can't you just be up front about that?
 
Jerry said:
You linked to an undercover investigator. This is exactly like police departments who use highschool kids to try and buy cigarettes so they can catch the vendors who are braking the law. That's how you enforce these things.
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Yea since im guessing police departments are gonna do that and a gigantic level:roll: like Alcholic Beverage Control right? And you do realize they dont have to ask that question right?

In post #17 you said it wouldn't help prevent gun crime.
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I said it wouldnt help prevent several massacres you were talking about.

Background checks are about registration, why can't you just be up front about that?
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Its about keeping guns out of the hands of mentally unstable and felons. How is that not common sense legislation?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Its about keeping guns out of the hands of mentally unstable and felons. How is that not common sense legislation?
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It's a nice idea, very agreeable, to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable and violent felons. The thing is, you're assuming criminal sellers will run background checks. They don't. Just like criminal tobacco vendors don't card highschool kids.
 
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Jerry said:
It's a nice idea, very agreeable, to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable and violent felons. The thing is, you're assuming criminal sellers will run background checks. They don't.
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So your telling me people who are connected to gangs, gun violence, etc dont buy guns from non "criminal sellers" and therefore we should not implement a program of background checks for them?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
So your telling me people who are connected to gangs, gun violence, etc dont buy guns from non "criminal sellers" and therefore we should not implement a program of background checks for them?
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Background checks don't touch the ways criminals get their guns.

  • If you legally own a firearm, and someone burglarizes your home and takes your gun, there was no one there to first run a background check on the bugler before hey ran off with your gun.
  • When that bugler sells your gun to someone in the market for a stolen firearm, there's no one there to first run a background check on the buyer.
  • When a straw-purchaser walks into an FFL, has a valid ID, CCW, and passes NICS with no problems, thus legally buys a gun, even registering it...and then has a "boating accident" the next week and complies with the law by reporting his new gun as lost or stolen within 24-48hrs...but in reality sold those guns to the black market...there is no one present to first run a background check on the buyer.
It's a good and desirable thing to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable and violent felons, but background checks are not the right tool for that job. What is needed is good undercover work like the video you posted. It's not just that you catch bad vendors, but make an example out of the ones you catch, and this will cause a massive wave of voluntary compliance from 99% of all the other vendors. Of the vendors who would still sell to criminals, they're taking a grater risk and so the price of the illegal gun skyrockets like a tax. Illegal guns would cost more, and that would further make them harder for a criminal to get a hold of.

You and I agree that guns should be kept out of the hands of the unstable and violent felons, we just disagree on how to do it. I'm not disagreeing with your goal, I'm disagreeing with your strategy.
 
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