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Thread: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill ‘Obamacare’

  1. #31
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    Re: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill ‘Obamacare’

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    the lawsuit will fail.....primarily because Obamacare was a "shell bill".....

    a shell bill is a bill passed by the House initially, but then the provisions of that bill are stripped out by the Senate and replaced with..welll.... whatever they want.

    Obamacare started in the House.... the House bill addressed tax break for military homeowners.
    the military homeowners tax breaks were stripped out of the bill when it reached the Senate, and Obamacare was inserted.


    and that,folks, is how you get around Constitutional provisions.... that's your federal government at work.

    who here is surprised they can't follow the letter or the spirit of the Constitution?...certainly not me.
    You are correct about how this abortion came about...about the sleazy way the Democrats forced this piece of crap on us...and I fear you are correct about the probable outcome of this lawsuit. The courts have upheld the validity of this underhanded tactic in the past...they will uphold it this time as well.
    TANSTAAFL

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    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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    Re: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill ‘Obamacare’

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
    So a tax that is passed on to people who need durable medical devices is a good thing? I hope you never need one.
    "The rich and the health industry would pick up most of the tab."

    "A special agent looks into the files of health care fraud cases at a warehouse near Miami on Nov. 23, 2009. Cracking down on health care fraud, which costs Americans billions of dollars a year, is one way the health care reform bill plans to pay for its $940 billion price tag."

    Health care reform bill 101: Who will pay for reform? - CSMonitor.com
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #33
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    Re: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill ‘Obamacare’

    Quote Originally Posted by mr4anarchy View Post
    See, here's the problem, you don't even know who is being taxed. I guess Fox News doesn't like to get into the details.
    Don't watch Fox News, or any of the overblown wannabe news sites.

    Manufactures and importers of durable medical devices will be paying the 2.3% tax. Why? Because the government found out what an outrageous markup they typically charge their customers. The Times Magazine article broke down the durable medical device manufacturer's profit margin and showed how they should not have to raise their prices at all. Those using the tax as an excuse to raise prices are taking advantage of the sick and elderly who are unwilling participants in the health care market -- meaning no one wakes up and decides to go out and buy a durable medical device. When consumers come into that market, they have little choice but to pay the outrageous markup or suffer. Keep in mind that a lot of these elderly specific products are paid by.... dum-dum-dum... Medicare!! And even at the medicare price, they're still making a profit!!

    Before commenting further, I suggest reading the Times piece and get a better understanding of how durable medical device manufacture's and importers make billions and can easily afford a 2.3% tax that will go, in part, to the purchase of their products.
    I am one of those end users, and I am well aware of who is going to be paying that tax. The tax basis, not a sales tax, but a tax on the actual items value for the market before any deduction for production or marketing. Right off the top tax.

    Most DMG's have increased in price over the last 4 years, as with several things, in anticipation of the coming tax levies. R&D for most new DMGs costs a lot of time and research, which this new tax does not take into consideration, impeding further R&D and development of future devices.

    I got quite a kick out of your shift of blame: but they make too much profit already! The government should not be involved in judging the right of profit of 'private' companies. If they take that right, what can follow next is judging how much 'profit' individuals have a right to.
    Building block or stumbling block.... choose.

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    Re: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill ‘Obamacare’

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "The rich and the health industry would pick up most of the tab."

    "A special agent looks into the files of health care fraud cases at a warehouse near Miami on Nov. 23, 2009. Cracking down on health care fraud, which costs Americans billions of dollars a year, is one way the health care reform bill plans to pay for its $940 billion price tag."

    Health care reform bill 101: Who will pay for reform? - CSMonitor.com
    The article is a wee bit out of date, from 2010. Many of the numbers have been revised by the CBO.

    And the ACA is far, far from 'healthcare reform', a misnomer of entertaining proportions. It is a mandate of insurance, it addresses nothing to actually 'reform' healthcare.
    Building block or stumbling block.... choose.

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    Re: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill ‘Obamacare’

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    What is your problem with the Affordable HeatlhCare Act, and please provide links to back up your facts.
    I will not share by costs with you other than to say my premiums have gone up more in the previous 12 months than the last 12 years "COMBINED". I saw a huge increase when 26 year olds were allowed to stay on parents insurance and all of kids are grown and gone. Now I am having to jump through hoops to keep the great insurance I have had for almost 25 years now because of ACA. Obama is a **** up.

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    Re: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill ‘Obamacare’

    Quote Originally Posted by mtm1963 View Post
    they will loose.

    the bill was brought in the house first i believe.
    nope, it would have never passed if it had been

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    Re: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill ‘Obamacare’

    Quote Originally Posted by mtm1963 View Post
    they will loose.

    the bill was brought in the house first i believe.
    Yes, the bill was crafted by the House in November of 2009.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    Re: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill ‘Obamacare’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    “Obamacare” looks increasingly inevitable, but one lawsuit making its way through the court system could pull the plug on the sweeping federal health care law.

    A challenge filed by the Pacific Legal Foundation contends that the Affordable Care Act is unconstitutional because the bill originated in the Senate, not the House. Under the Origination Clause of the Constitution, all bills raising revenue must begin in the House



    Read more: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill 'Obamacare' - Washington Times
    Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
    Here is something to keep in mind:

    Say, doesn’t the Constitution require tax bills to originate in the House?
    POSTED AT 8:41 PM ON JUNE 28, 2012 BY ALLAHPUNDIT

    Just a quickie post to debunk an argument that we’re already seeing in threads and e-mails: Namely, doesn’t Article I, section 7 of the Constitution say that all bills that raise revenue must originate in the House? And didn’t ObamaCare pass the Senate before it passed the House? And doesn’t that in turn mean that our nifty new health care “tax” was passed according to unconstitutional procedures?

    Unless I’m missing something, no. The bill that passed the Senate wasn’t technically a Senate bill. Reid took a bill that had already passed the House, stripped out the provisions to turn it into a “shell bill,” and then inserted the text of ObamaCare to get around this requirement. The bill that passed the Senate was H.R. 3590, which initially had to do with tax breaks for military homeowners. And yes, they’ve used the “shell bill” strategy before. In fact, the conservative opinion today specifically mentioned Article I, section 7 at one point while raising no objection to Reid’s sleight of hand. Quote:
    For all these reasons, to say that the Individual Mandate merely imposes a tax is not to interpret the statute but to rewrite it. Judicial tax-writing is particularly troubling. Taxes have never been popular, see, e.g., Stamp Actof 1765, and in part for that reason, the Constitution requires tax increases to originate in the House of Representatives. See Art. I, §7, cl. 1. That is to say, they must originate in the legislative body most accountable to the people, where legislators must weigh the need for the tax against the terrible price they might pay at their next election, which is never more than two years off. The Federalist No. 58 “defend[ed] the decision to give the origination power to the House on the ground that the Chamber that is more accountable to the people should have the primary role in raising revenue.” United States v. Munoz-Flores, 495 U. S. 385, 395 (1990). We have no doubt that Congress knew precisely what it was doing when it rejected an earlier version of this legislation that imposed a tax instead of a requirement-with-penalty. See Affordable Health Care for America Act, H. R. 3962, 111th Cong., 1st Sess., §501 (2009); America’s Healthy Future Act of 2009, S. 1796, 111th Cong., 1st Sess., §1301. Imposing a tax through judicial legislation inverts the constitutional scheme, and places the power to tax in the branch of government least accountable to the
    citizenry.

    The Court tolerates the “shell bill” procedure, I think, because the Seventeenth Amendment has somewhat undermined the Framers’ intent of making sure that tax bills begin in the chamber that’s more accountable to the people. The House is still more accountable, but less so now that the Senate is also popularly elected. And in the case of O-Care, which passed a deep blue House at the time and a barely filibuster-proof Senate, there’s no doubt that the tax-mandate would have passed the House easily even if it had originated there. I suppose O-Care opponents could sue anyway and claim that “shell bills” in tax matters should be deemed unconstitutional because they violate the spirit of Article I, section 7, but c’mon: How likely do you think Roberts would be to say, “You’re right, I totally spaced on the origination clause in my earlier landmark ruling. Decision overturned”?
    The silver lining here procedurally is that, now that the mandate’s officially a “tax,” it falls squarely within the parameters of budgetary matters than can be dealt with in the Senate via reconciliation. That means the GOP will only need 51 votes to get rid of it, not 60.
    Update: While we’re at it, one more bit debunkery. Some people on Twitter this morning were speculating about whether it’d be legal now to tax guns or abortion in order to regulate them. The problem with those examples is that each involves a constitutional right, which makes taxing them a lot trickier legally. Eugene Volokh wrote a bit about it a few years ago over at his site. You can impose some sort of minimal fees, but once your tax is onerous enough that it’s deemed to have imposed a “substantial” burden on the right in question, it’s unconstitutional.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill ‘Obamacare’

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    What is your problem with the Affordable HeatlhCare Act, and please provide links to back up your facts.
    It's unConstitutional on its very basic facts. Nowhere in Article I, Section 8 does the document give Congress the right to legislate or spend money on healthcare.

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    Re: Lawsuit over health care tax could kill ‘Obamacare’

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Yes, the bill was crafted by the House in November of 2009.
    yes, yes it was.... and it passed unanimously....416-0 in favor.

    ....but that was when it was called "Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009"

    the name and all the details were stripped by the Senate... Obamacare was then inserted.

    it was then sent back to the house as a reconciliation bill, instead of a conference bill ( to thwart another Senate vote and probable filibuster)


    I don't care who ya are, that's some shady dealing....

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