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Thread: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Write

  1. #21
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    Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    By invasion and disposing of the government of a sovereign nation? What right do we have to interfere with how another country manages its property?

    Not to mention the cost in lives and dollars has not been worth it.

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    Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

    Quote Originally Posted by 66gardeners View Post
    I'm really impressed with your intelligence. How do you explain your views and your identity as a conservative? I identify as a fiscal conservative, but I would not vote for a republican for exactly that reason and many others as well. I consider myself a progressive because who in their right minds would be against progress?
    Don't confuse the voice of experience with intelligence. I'm a truly conservative individual. I'm not a Republican, I'm a Green. I think Republicans have co-opted the word Conservative to obscure their radical right wing views. I'm an environmentalist, a hypocrit, an inventor, don't think gays are genetic, don't oppose gay marriage, view marriage as contracts not religion, definite iconoclast (but don't try it until you know your icons well), etc. I had to learn all about energy and money because I invented a really good energy invention and couldn't sell it ( I guess I don't know crap about marketing). Learned how Energy works and am here to tell others. Those laws passed in the 1920s known as anti-trust laws did not work and they don't teach that. Energy has run this country since John D. Rockefeller (one of my heroes) had a billion dollars in 1913 and the Federal budget was only $813 million. That's a one paragraph short story to cover 600 pages.

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    Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Don't confuse the voice of experience with intelligence. I'm a truly conservative individual. I'm not a Republican, I'm a Green. I think Republicans have co-opted the word Conservative to obscure their radical right wing views. I'm an environmentalist, a hypocrit, an inventor, don't think gays are genetic, don't oppose gay marriage, view marriage as contracts not religion, definite iconoclast (but don't try it until you know your icons well), etc. I had to learn all about energy and money because I invented a really good energy invention and couldn't sell it ( I guess I don't know crap about marketing). Learned how Energy works and am here to tell others. Those laws passed in the 1920s known as anti-trust laws did not work and they don't teach that. Energy has run this country since John D. Rockefeller (one of my heroes) had a billion dollars in 1913 and the Federal budget was only $813 million. That's a one paragraph short story to cover 600 pages.
    Well, it is nice to meet you. Your commentary is not engaging.

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    Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

    Quote Originally Posted by 66gardeners View Post
    Well, it is nice to meet you. Your commentary is not engaging.
    Nor is your constant hate rhetoric.
    Greatness lies not in being strong, but in the right use of strength - Henry Ward Beecher
    Baby sister, I was born game and I intend to go out that way - Rooster Cogburn

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    Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

    Quote Originally Posted by SMTA View Post
    Nor is your constant hate rhetoric.
    This is conservative code for citation of facts that demolish conservative memes.

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    Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    The line libs use is we wanted to take over Iraq oil when the truth was we wanted to protect the flow of oil which we rely on, huge difference.
    Not really. And considering Bush's fiasco costs us $3T and good will of most of the world, not a good deal either.

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    Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Is that what I teach my children? Well, on that point, in a round about way, yes. Those who are most prepared, from education, to work experience, will likely fair far better than those who don't. Fact.

    However, you're attempt to take the point I made elsewhere is rather foolish, don't you think? You asked about a countries rights, and then predictably bored my response down to children and a neighbor versus neighbor thing. A bit too predictable.

    So, as the point relates to what gives a country the right? I stated historical fact. Iraq attempted to take control of a commodity the world depends on to survive. Bad decision. Bigger stick decided the outcome of that decision.


    No, I was referring to your policy of taking what you want with a big stick. Is that what you teach your children? Is that the way you think our society should behave? How is it your morals end at our borders?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    This is conservative code for citation of facts that demolish conservative memes.
    Wrong - calling hatred out when it occurs.
    Greatness lies not in being strong, but in the right use of strength - Henry Ward Beecher
    Baby sister, I was born game and I intend to go out that way - Rooster Cogburn

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    Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

    The Iraq Oil Law

    "One of our greatest helpers has been the State Department" - John D Rockefeller (1909)


    "One of the more interesting pieces of political maneuvering in occupied Iraq has been the attempt to pass a law governing how Iraq's oil reserves and oil revenues will be divided and what role international oil companies will play in the country.

    There have been persistent claims the law is about to be passed for well over a year, but so far the Iraqi Parliament has managed to avoid doing any such thing.

    The proposed law has been the subject of a lot of controversy during that time (with the Bush administration making it one of the primary "benchmarks" it wants the Iraqi government to meet), with this summary of "key facts" from Oil Change International being a good outline of the major complaints:

    The proposed Iraq hydrocarbon law would take the majority of Iraq’s oil out of the exclusive hands of the Iraqi government and open it to international oil companies for a generation or more. The law is a dramatic break from the past. Foreign oil companies will have a stake in Iraq’s vast oil wealth for the first time since 1972, when Iraq nationalized the oil industry.

    BearingPoint, a Virginia based contractor is being paid $240m for its work in Iraq, winning an initial contract from the US Agency for International Development (USAid) within weeks of the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003. A BearingPoint employee, based in the US embassy in Baghdad, was hired to advise the Iraqi Ministry of Oil on drawing up a new hydrocarbon law. BearingPoint employees gave $117,000 to the 2000 and 2004 Bush election campaigns, more than any other Iraq contractor.

    The process of drafting the oil law has been particularly troubling. The timeline of which entities have seen the draft when suggests that Iraqi interests are not being considered first and foremost:

    * Draft shown to US government and major oil companies – July 06
    * Draft shown to the International Monetary Fund September 06
    * Draft shown to Iraqi Parliament: February 07

    The Iraq National Oil Company would have exclusive control of just 17 of Iraq’s 80 known oil fields, leaving two-thirds of known — and all of its as yet undiscovered — reserves open to foreign control.

    The law sets no minimum standard for the extent to which foreign companies would not have to invest their earnings in the Iraqi economy, partner with Iraqi companies, hire Iraqi workers or share new technologies.

    The international oil companies could also be offered some of the most corporate-friendly contracts in the world, including what are called production sharing agreements. These agreements are the oil industry’s preferred model, but are roundly rejected by all the top oil producing countries in the Middle East because they grant long-term contracts (20 to 30 years in the case of Iraq’s draft law) and greater control, ownership and profits to the companies than other models. In fact, they are used for only approximately 12 percent of the world’s oil.

    Iraq’s neighbors Iran, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia maintain nationalized oil systems and have outlawed foreign control over oil development. They all hire international oil companies as contractors to provide specific services as needed, for a limited duration, and without giving the foreign company any direct interest in the oil produced

    Iraqis may very well choose to use the expertise and experience of international oil companies. They are most likely to do so in a manner that best serves their own needs if they are freed from the tremendous external pressure being exercised by the Bush administration, the oil corporations — and the presence of 140,000 members of the American military.

    The leadership of Iraq’s five trade union federations released a statement opposing the law and rejecting ‘’the handing of control over oil to foreign companies, which would undermine the sovereignty of the state and the dignity of the Iraqi people.’’ They ask for more time, less pressure and a chance at the democracy they have been promised.


    When I first read about the proposed law, the point that instantly caught my eye was the handing over of all "undiscovered" oil to possible foreign exploitation - which makes a lot of sense if you consider Professor Blair's stories about suppressed oil discoveries back in the old days (along with large swathes of the country remaining unexplored).

    Of course, the Iraqi government may have thwarted this particular tactic with it's announcement this year upping reserves to 350 billion barrels, thus restricting the "undiscovered" category to any amount found beyond this number.

    The Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister told The Times that new exploration showed that his country has the world’s largest proven oil reserves, with as much as 350 billion barrels. The figure is triple the country’s present proven reserves and exceeds that of Saudi Arabia’s estimated 264 billion barrels of oil. Barham Salih said that the new estimate had been based on recent geological surveys and seismic data compiled by “reputable, international oil companies . . . This is a serious figure from credible sources.”


    In the meantime the Iraqis are perhaps hoping they can dawdle over passing any law for as long as it takes for US troops to leave the country - something the Iraqis are asking to occur by 2011.

    Various tactics have been tried by the oil companies as well, ranging from attempts to negotiate contracts directly with the Kurdish regional government in the north, to a range of no bid oil contracts (later cancelled) to the recent sell-off discussions in London that I started the post with (the outcome of which doesn't seem to have been reported anywhere that I can find)."

    "Of course it’s about oil, we can’t really deny that" - General John Abizaid (2007)


    "People say we’re not fighting for oil. Of course we are. They talk about America’s national interest. What the hell do you think they’re talking about? We’re not there for figs!" - Republican Senator Charles Hagel

    Peak Energy: Iraq's Oil: The Greatest Prize Of All
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Dick Cheney, Ahmed Chalabi Contemplated Value Of Iraqi Oil To U.S., David Frum Wr

    National Interest? War and oil or war and soldiers or the price of war. OR reality.

    Truthdig - The Last Letter

    "I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I did not join the Army to go to Iraq, a country that had no part in the September 2001 attacks and did not pose a threat to its neighbors, much less to the United States. I did not join the Army to “liberate” Iraqis or to shut down mythical weapons-of-mass-destruction facilities or to implant what you cynically called “democracy” in Baghdad and the Middle East. I did not join the Army to rebuild Iraq, which at the time you told us could be paid for by Iraq’s oil revenues. Instead, this war has cost the United States over $3 trillion. I especially did not join the Army to carry out pre-emptive war. Pre-emptive war is illegal under international law. And as a soldier in Iraq I was, I now know, abetting your idiocy and your crimes. The Iraq War is the largest strategic blunder in U.S. history. It obliterated the balance of power in the Middle East. It installed a corrupt and brutal pro-Iranian government in Baghdad, one cemented in power through the use of torture, death squads and terror. And it has left Iran as the dominant force in the region. On every level—moral, strategic, military and economic—Iraq was a failure. And it was you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney, who started this war. It is you who should pay the consequences. "

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