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Thread: 10 Years On, Paul Wolfowitz Admits U.S. Bungled in Iraq

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    Re: 10 Years On, Paul Wolfowitz Admits U.S. Bungled in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    A single former ambassador proves something for one, if it is what one would like to hear. Wikileaks was mostly ambassador and other diplomats communicating suspicions, rumors and even flat out guesses. Some people think those things prove something. Mostly, it's just embarrassing to have ones speculation aired.

    Raw Story Christian Avard reports that a former ambassador has a new book out about the incompetence of the Bush administration...
    I'm sure that will be an exciting book. Hacks, extreme partisans, CTers and unabombers throughout the country probably drool while reading it.

    During their conversation with the President, Galbraith claims, it became apparent to them that Bush was unfamiliar with the distinction between Sunnis and Shiites. Galbraith reports that the three of them spent some time explaining to Bush that there are two different sects in Islam–to which the President allegedly responded, “I thought the Iraqis were Muslims!”
    Funny, granted. I think I heard it long ago.

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    Re: 10 Years On, Paul Wolfowitz Admits U.S. Bungled in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    What I found amazing was that President Bush thought Iraq was populated with a homogenous group of Muslims , he didn't realize there was animosity between the Sunni and the Shia, which was the major cause of the civil war in 2007.
    I give President Bush far more credit than you do and frankly far more than a lot of Americans do. I don't think he was that ignorant of the Iraqi dynamics. Similar to what's going on in Syria now, when a minority rules the majority with an iron fist, once there is instability there is a great possibility that chaos with result if there isn't a strong central authority and a policing presence to sustain it. America would have had the moral authority immediately upon the fall of Saddam but once that was lost there was no way to recover it. That said, Iraq is a far better situation than Iran and has a more promising future. I'd also say that Iraq has a more promising future than Eqypt - in my view, Egypt is headed towards an Iran style state more so than a democratic state.

    Without the advent of 9/11, I believe Bush would have been a fairly isolationist President, pulling back on American involvement around the world. Once attacked, that was no longer possible.

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    Re: 10 Years On, Paul Wolfowitz Admits U.S. Bungled in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post

    The connection between the attack of 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq was... what again? Oh, right. The former gave the war hawks an excuse for the latter, even though Iraq had nothing at all to do with the terrorist attack on that dark day.
    If you read Feith's memoir, with his framing starting at around page 8-9, you get to see how the Defense Department argued the War on Terrorism included Iraq and other states, and why they took issue with your definition of terrorism.

    I also disagree with it, but it's not exactly an excuse. It's the framing of the conflict that mattered to them. They thought after 3,000 people died, the problem needed to be handled more broadly. Yes, there were apriori assumptions involved, but it wasn't so simple.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: 10 Years On, Paul Wolfowitz Admits U.S. Bungled in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray410 View Post
    A moment's reflection reveals who the wrongly named "Neocons" are, what their purpose is and what their purpose will always remain. Who knows what was in it for the far left leaning globalist Bushes.
    What on earth do you mean?
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: 10 Years On, Paul Wolfowitz Admits U.S. Bungled in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    If you read Feith's memoir, with his framing starting at around page 8-9, you get to see how the Defense Department argued the War on Terrorism included Iraq and other states, and why they took issue with your definition of terrorism.

    I also disagree with it, but it's not exactly an excuse. It's the framing of the conflict that mattered to them. They thought after 3,000 people died, the problem needed to be handled more broadly. Yes, there were apriori assumptions involved, but it wasn't so simple.
    Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld, the real architects of the war against Iraq, were all members of the Project for a New American Century, which had as its agenda the maintenance of a pax americana on the rest of the world. Iraq, according to their philosophy, had to be taken over. They thought the war could be over and won in six months or less.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: 10 Years On, Paul Wolfowitz Admits U.S. Bungled in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld, the real architects of the war against Iraq, were all members of the Project for a New American Century, which had as its agenda the maintenance of a pax americana on the rest of the world. Iraq, according to their philosophy, had to be taken over. They thought the war could be over and won in six months or less.
    Yes, I am well aware of PNAC (though you should also read Present Dangers​). I have their entire website backed up on external hard drives for future research. Nevertheless, they conceptualized the War on Terror as necessitating a change in style in cracking down on terrorism: from policing to looking at it as a socio-economic and political problem.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 03-18-13 at 05:59 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: 10 Years On, Paul Wolfowitz Admits U.S. Bungled in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I give President Bush far more credit than you do and frankly far more than a lot of Americans do. I don't think he was that ignorant of the Iraqi dynamics. Similar to what's going on in Syria now, when a minority rules the majority with an iron fist, once there is instability there is a great possibility that chaos with result if there isn't a strong central authority and a policing presence to sustain it. America would have had the moral authority immediately upon the fall of Saddam but once that was lost there was no way to recover it. That said, Iraq is a far better situation than Iran and has a more promising future. I'd also say that Iraq has a more promising future than Eqypt - in my view, Egypt is headed towards an Iran style state more so than a democratic state.

    Without the advent of 9/11, I believe Bush would have been a fairly isolationist President, pulling back on American involvement around the world. Once attacked, that was no longer possible.
    I don't believe BushII or his staff had a very strong grasp of the Middle East past Israel First. I doubt anyone in his cabinet had a firm grasp of Muslim sects and traditions. I recall them immediately knocking down ANY suggestion 200,000 troops would be needed to police Iraq once Saddam was ousted. With the history of using minor Nazi Officials in post war Germany I don't see why the Bush Administration thought a complete dump of all of Iraq's security and administrative people was a smart thing. While Bemmer is the scapegoat, I can't see how the Bush Administration could claim they didn't know what would happen between Sunni and Shia factions in post Saddam Iraq.

    I see BushII as already leaning toward making a bold move on the international front before 9/11. He was already pissed about an attempt on BushI while Daddy was visiting Kuwait (1993). He was already saying sanctions are not enough and everytime the Iraqis fired a SAM at our aircraft it was an act of war. I don't see BushII as an isolationist, he never held a passport, but he had quite a few political wonks who thought they knew the world from think tank white papers...

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    Re: 10 Years On, Paul Wolfowitz Admits U.S. Bungled in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Yes, I am well aware of PNAC (though you should also read Present Dangers​). I have their entire website backed up on external hard drives for future research. Nevertheless, they conceptualized the War on Terror as necessitating a change in style in cracking down on terrorism: from policing to looking at it as a socio-economic and political problem.
    It is a socio economic and political problem.


    Their approach didn't prove too successful, it seems to me.
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    Re: 10 Years On, Paul Wolfowitz Admits U.S. Bungled in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    I don't believe BushII or his staff had a very strong grasp of the Middle East past Israel First. I doubt anyone in his cabinet had a firm grasp of Muslim sects and traditions. I recall them immediately knocking down ANY suggestion 200,000 troops would be needed to police Iraq once Saddam was ousted. With the history of using minor Nazi Officials in post war Germany I don't see why the Bush Administration thought a complete dump of all of Iraq's security and administrative people was a smart thing. While Bemmer is the scapegoat, I can't see how the Bush Administration could claim they didn't know what would happen between Sunni and Shia factions in post Saddam Iraq.

    I see BushII as already leaning toward making a bold move on the international front before 9/11. He was already pissed about an attempt on BushI while Daddy was visiting Kuwait (1993). He was already saying sanctions are not enough and everytime the Iraqis fired a SAM at our aircraft it was an act of war. I don't see BushII as an isolationist, he never held a passport, but he had quite a few political wonks who thought they knew the world from think tank white papers...
    Not surprisingly, I disagree pretty much with your every mischaracterization of President Bush.

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    Re: 10 Years On, Paul Wolfowitz Admits U.S. Bungled in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    It is a socio economic and political problem.


    Their approach didn't prove too successful, it seems to me.
    Not generally, no. Nevertheless, defining Iraq as an excuse.... is too simplistic of an explanation for the ideas they had about why it was necessary as well as how the United States were to supposedly gain from it.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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