• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The First Bite: Cyprus

Harry Guerrilla said:
I agree.
The story seems to indicate that it targets non Eurozone foreign nationals (Russians in this case).
Kinda reminds me of Argentina doing their currency manipulation.

To me, it certainly bolsters the idea of putting some money in Bitcoins or other forms of currency not controlled by states.
Click to expand...

I'm heavily invested in precious metals myself. Lead and brass mostly. Just listed a couple bricks of ammo for sale on Gunbroker on Friday, auction ends tomorrow. I should at least double my money. Gold and silver might be useful if everything goes to crap but not until recovery begins. But I'll make enough on ammo this week alone to buy that new chest freezer I've been looking at. :peace
 
Cyrylek said:
How is it "failing", before ever having been tried, in Cyrpus?

Anyway, I am all for austerity, as in: systematically reducing spending and perhaps raising more revenue by closing tax loopholes.
But this is not "austerity" - this is robbery. Just grab, out of blue, a tenth of savings on every account?! And the EU had approved it, as a part of the package?!!

Are they, like, NUTS?

Who is going to trust European banks after this?
Click to expand...

I'm curious....how, in the grand scheme of things, is this any different than simply raising taxes by 10% on everybody?

The problem in Cyprus is the same as what we are seeing here and in other places around the world...government has legislated spending well, well beyond it's ability to generate sufficient revenues through economic growth so they must tax more and more while at the same time borrowing more and more. It's an impossible scenario to maintain and MUST end in failure unless the people are willing to do without many of the things which they have charged government to provide.

There are only two possible solutions to the problem. One is to reduce government services to a sustainable level and allow growth by function of the private sector and the other is absolute control of everything by government.
 
Lutherf said:
I'm curious....how, in the grand scheme of things, is this any different than simply raising taxes by 10% on everybody?

The problem in Cyprus is the same as what we are seeing here and in other places around the world...government has legislated spending well, well beyond it's ability to generate sufficient revenues through economic growth so they must tax more and more while at the same time borrowing more and more. It's an impossible scenario to maintain and MUST end in failure unless the people are willing to do without many of the things which they have charged government to provide.

There are only two possible solutions to the problem. One is to reduce government services to a sustainable level and allow growth by function of the private sector and the other is absolute control of everything by government.
Click to expand...

Lets, say you saved 1 million bucks over your lifetime and then 10% is suddenly taken away.
Now let's say they impose an additional 10% tax on your income.

Big difference.
Not only does it punish retirees but it also punishes people who don't spend as much.
Not to mention foreign residents who bring money to their economy.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Lets, say you saved 1 million bucks over your lifetime and then 10% is suddenly taken away.
Now let's say they impose an additional 10% tax on your income.

Big difference.
Not only does it punish retirees but it also punishes people who don't spend as much.
Not to mention foreign residents who bring money to their economy.
Click to expand...

I understand that.

Like I said, it's just another tax to cover the failings of the government to control spending. The only difference is that in this case it's more overt than filling out a return and mailing in a check....and more efficient. It's just a sign of things to come if we keep on going the way we are going. If people can't seem to wean themselves from massive government then this is pretty much what we all can expect in the not too distant future.

I haven't bothered to get into it but right now these governments (including ours) are doing things like this "for our benefit" but the next step will inevitably be for them to start doing it for their benefit because the mentality of such massive "nanny states" is that they must first preserve themselves so that they can "save" the citizens.
 
Banks again huh, evil rich guys, shame on them for continuing to try and prop up the socialist that will never have enough to provide for all the votes they need to buy.


PeteEU said:
And if you knew anything about Cyprus, you would know that the deficit is mostly due to the state having to bail out the banks... And you would know that before the crisis Cyprus had a surplus but that went south when banks had to be bailed out..

So yet again, the US right has no clue on reality and blame the "left" and overspending when in fact the reason for the problems is.... the private sector and in this case the banking sector..... /clap!
Click to expand...
 
Obama will act to steal from sophisticated Americans before they have a chance to react to the danger he represents. Now is the time to protect yourself from your president.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
You know Pete, it's sad when your own phrase comes and bites you in the ass, British military personnel and civil servants based in Cyprus and working for the British Govt are being compensated for losses in Cyprus. Anyone with money in a Cypriot bank outside Cyprus is not liable to the 10% theft. People working for the British Govt in Cyprus are not there because they want a higher rate of interest, they are there working for Britain. They are based there because they have been sent or stationed there - and it's not always possible to keep or access your money in a UK Bank or building society when stationed overseas so you sometimes have to have a local account.
Click to expand...

That is utter bull****. Barclay's has branches there as do other British banks. No one forced this military personnel to put their money in local banks. They did it because they would get higher interest rates. Why do you think that Cyprus was/is the main money laundering place of the Russian mafia?

You are in Spain because of private choice - I doubt you have ever worked for your Govt in an overseas location, I have and sometimes out of necessity you have to have a local account. It's nothing to do with greed.
Click to expand...

I agree, it is not always that there are British banks and then you are forced to deal with local banks. But in this case there are British banks. Barcley and RBS both have branches there, that specifically target the British expat and military communities.
 
CalGun said:
Banks again huh, evil rich guys, shame on them for continuing to try and prop up the socialist that will never have enough to provide for all the votes they need to buy.
Click to expand...

Fact is.. it is the banks that are the problem. The bailout is going to prop up the banks on Cyprus, not fund the government.
 
No the fact is the banks need a bail out because they were required to loan to countries that over spend and don't tax - when will you ever wake up?


PeteEU said:
Fact is.. it is the banks that are the problem. The bailout is going to prop up the banks on Cyprus, not fund the government.
Click to expand...
 
Lutherf said:
I understand that.

Like I said, it's just another tax to cover the failings of the government to control spending. The only difference is that in this case it's more overt than filling out a return and mailing in a check....and more efficient. It's just a sign of things to come if we keep on going the way we are going. If people can't seem to wean themselves from massive government then this is pretty much what we all can expect in the not too distant future.

I haven't bothered to get into it but right now these governments (including ours) are doing things like this "for our benefit" but the next step will inevitably be for them to start doing it for their benefit because the mentality of such massive "nanny states" is that they must first preserve themselves so that they can "save" the citizens.
Click to expand...

Well for some people, it wasn't there fault at all, speaking of the foreign nationals.
They lived outside the country for most of the time they had earnings.
 
PeteEU said:
That is utter bull****. Barclay's has branches there as do other British banks. No one forced this military personnel to put their money in local banks. They did it because they would get higher interest rates.
Click to expand...

So you absolutely can only have an account with Barclays or RBS if you're a Brit and you want to go to work in Cyprus, if you have an account with Lloyds or Nationwide or Santander or any of the Building Societies in the UK, you can't go to Cyprus because you're only (in Pete's world) allowed to have an account with one of the 2 or 3 British Banks there?

Have you any idea of the pressure banks put customers under to transfer accounts here in the UK? If I am a building society banker in the UK and open an account in another country with Barclays in Cyprus I am guaranteed lots of pressure and hard selling to transfer my account to Barclays here in the UK.

Your argument falls at the first hurdle yet again Pete. Many British customers won't bank with Barclays and RBS. I personally bank with Barclays but I would never bank with Lloyds so if it was Lloyds and RBS for me as a soldier - I would open a local bank account.

PeteEU said:
-- Why do you think that Cyprus was/is the main money laundering place of the Russian mafia?
Click to expand...

What's Cyprus got to do with British Banks and UK soldiers and government personell??

PeteEU said:
I agree, it is not always that there are British banks and then you are forced to deal with local banks. But in this case there are British banks. Barcley and RBS both have branches there, that specifically target the British expat and military communities.
Click to expand...

[/sigh] See above.
 
CalGun said:
No the fact is the banks need a bail out because they were required to loan to countries that over spend and don't tax - when will you ever wake up?
Click to expand...

Who the hell required them to loan to countries like Greece? NO ONE! Stop blaming government and people in general for the failures of the banking sector.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
So you absolutely can only have an account with Barclays or RBS if you're a Brit and you want to go to work in Cyprus, if you have an account with Lloyds or Nationwide or Santander or any of the Building Societies in the UK, you can't go to Cyprus because you're only (in Pete's world) allowed to have an account with one of the 2 or 3 British Banks there?
Click to expand...

Now you are just being childish because you know you lost the argument. Face, the British forces do not HAVE to have a bank account in a Cyprus bank... they chose to get them.

Have you any idea of the pressure banks put customers under to transfer accounts here in the UK? If I am a building society banker in the UK and open an account in another country with Barclays in Cyprus I am guaranteed lots of pressure and hard selling to transfer my account to Barclays here in the UK.
Click to expand...

And that is somehow now my problem that your banking regulation is pathetic? All I am stating is, that the British forces on Cyprus who had bank accounts in Cyprus banks, chose to do so.

Your argument falls at the first hurdle yet again Pete. Many British customers won't bank with Barclays and RBS. I personally bank with Barclays but I would never bank with Lloyds so if it was Lloyds and RBS for me as a soldier - I would open a local bank account.
Click to expand...

Again... your chose... hence your risk.

What's Cyprus got to do with British Banks and UK soldiers and government personell??
Click to expand...

You are the one who brought it up I believe in conjunction with the British government bailing out their own.
 
PeteEU said:
Now you are just being childish because you know you lost the argument. Face, the British forces do not HAVE to have a bank account in a Cyprus bank... they chose to get them.
Click to expand...

No, you tried to argue that Brits should have British bank accounts. You also stated that there are two British banks in Cyprus. I explained that not all Brits like to bank with "proper" British banks and that reasons for having a local account may be more than just a 2% rate of interest.

PeteEU said:
And that is somehow now my problem that your banking regulation is pathetic? All I am stating is, that the British forces on Cyprus who had bank accounts in Cyprus banks, chose to do so.
Click to expand...

Again - if the choice is a local bank and a British bank you may not already bank with... I see no reason why you're heading down a chauvinist route about British banks.

PeteEU said:
Again... your chose... hence your risk.
Click to expand...

You've never (like I said originally) worked for your government in a foreign country. I have and there are reasons way beyond simple interest rates why you have a local bank account. Sometimes the the foreign office advice is exactly that - have a local bank account.

I really don't expect you to get it - you're speaking from complete ignorance and chauvinism.

PeteEU said:
-- You are the one who brought it up I believe in conjunction with the British government bailing out their own.
Click to expand...

My bad - I meant to ask "what's Russian Mafia" got to do with what I was posting?
 
Infinite Chaos said:
No, you tried to argue that Brits should have British bank accounts. You also stated that there are two British banks in Cyprus. I explained that not all Brits like to bank with "proper" British banks and that reasons for having a local account may be more than just a 2% rate of interest.
Click to expand...

No I did not. I said they COULD have British bank accounts... big freaking difference.

Again - if the choice is a local bank and a British bank you may not already bank with... I see no reason why you're heading down a chauvinist route about British banks.
Click to expand...

Come on.. all I have pointed out is the problem with the British government bailing out its citizens due to these citizens putting their money in a foreign bank, when they COULD have put it in a British bank and not been subject to this theft. What will the UK government do if it happened in France, Spain or Italy.. where there are hundreds of thousands of Brits with bank accounts in local banks? And why only military personnel? It is one hell of a can of worms that Cameron has opened up but I suspect he is too stupid to realize what he has done.

You've never (like I said originally) worked for your government in a foreign country. I have and there are reasons way beyond simple interest rates why you have a local bank account. Sometimes the the foreign office advice is exactly that - have a local bank account.
Click to expand...

I have worked and lived overseas most of my life. I CHOSE to use local banks and I CHOOSE to use local banks in Spain, despite the 3 big Danish banks (including my Danish bank) having branches here. What dont you get with the idea that it is my choice, just as it is the choice of British military personnel in Cyprus to use local banks rather than British banks. And hence if my Spanish bank goes down, then it is my own fault because I made that choice of using it... should I expect a bailout by the Danish government for my choice?

So back to my point.. is it not a very dangerous precedent to start bailing out British citizens in other countries because they chose to put their money in local banks?

I really don't expect you to get it - you're speaking from complete ignorance and chauvinism.
Click to expand...

You seem to be blinded by some kind of rage and nationalistic pride or something and cant see the tree from the forest of hatred towards me and anyone who mentions the word British in a remotely negative nature.

My bad - I meant to ask "what's Russian Mafia" got to do with what I was posting?
Click to expand...

Ahh well you see Cyprus has been for a long time accused of being the money laundering capital of Europe. Did you know that something like 60% to 80% of the money on bank accounts in Cyprus is actually held by Russian nationals? Russians have been using Cyprus as a place to move their money overseas.. and most of that money is gotten by illegal ways... corruption, drug running and so on. The EU has been pissed about it for a while, but have not been able to do anything about it without pissing off the Russians royally... but now it seems they saw their opening. Russia has tens of billions invested on the island and in Cyprus banks.. and all that is now under threat. That is also why they are moving to change the deal so that those under 100k pay less... where as those over 100k pay much more.. Guess who has over 100k and guess who has under 100k?
 
PeteEU said:
No I did not. I said they COULD have British bank accounts... big freaking difference.
Click to expand...

Again, they "could" have British bank accounts but with banks they disagree with or have objections to using. Equally, they may be very happy with their normal bank and unwilling to face the pressure to transfer accounts once they have a second account.

PeteEU said:
-- Come on.. all I have pointed out is the problem with the British government bailing out its citizens due to these citizens putting their money in a foreign bank, when they COULD have put it in a British bank and not been subject to this theft. What will the UK government do if it happened in France, Spain or Italy.. where there are hundreds of thousands of Brits with bank accounts in local banks? And why only military personnel? It is one hell of a can of worms that Cameron has opened up but I suspect he is too stupid to realize what he has done.

I have worked and lived overseas most of my life. I CHOSE to use local banks and I CHOOSE to use local banks in Spain, despite the 3 big Danish banks (including my Danish bank) having branches here. What dont you get with the idea that it is my choice, just as it is the choice of British military personnel in Cyprus to use local banks rather than British banks. And hence if my Spanish bank goes down, then it is my own fault because I made that choice of using it... should I expect a bailout by the Danish government for my choice?
Click to expand...

I'll try and explain it one last time, if you work for your national government in another country, you get in-country advice sometimes: where to drink / eat / play etc. It can also go on to information about banking. A private citizen makes their own choices to be there. A soldier does not choose his or her posting; a civil servant does not choose (usually) his or her next post. Your national govt has put you there and may even have advised you - thus, there is a duty of care.

PeteEU said:
--So back to my point.. is it not a very dangerous precedent to start bailing out British citizens in other countries because they chose to put their money in local banks?
Click to expand...

Have you ever worked overseas for your government? Not for yourself or a company (they often have their own arrangements)

PeteEU said:
--You seem to be blinded by some kind of rage and nationalistic pride or something and cant see the tree from the forest of hatred towards me and anyone who mentions the word British in a remotely negative nature.
Click to expand...

NO, you just post inaccurate and sometimes ignorant stuff Pete.

PeteEU said:
-- Ahh well you see Cyprus has been for a long time accused of being the money laundering capital of Europe. Did you know that something like 60% to 80% of the money on bank accounts in Cyprus is actually held by Russian nationals? Russians have been using Cyprus as a place to move their money overseas.. and most of that money is gotten by illegal ways... corruption, drug running and so on. The EU has been pissed about it for a while, but have not been able to do anything about it without pissing off the Russians royally... but now it seems they saw their opening. Russia has tens of billions invested on the island and in Cyprus banks.. and all that is now under threat. That is also why they are moving to change the deal so that those under 100k pay less... where as those over 100k pay much more.. Guess who has over 100k and guess who has under 100k?
Click to expand...

OK, but nothing to do with government employment in another country and local banking.
 
CalGun said:
Yes they could have let Greece fail. Hey why not kick that first domino. Cypress banks have lost $3.5 billion on Greek bonds.
Everything You Need to Know About the Cyprus Bank Disaster - Matthew O'Brien - The Atlantic
Click to expand...

Just as they should have let the American banks fail right?

Wake up. Govt isn't any more your friend then the banks govt controls.
Click to expand...

No you need to wake up and see that it is the banks that often control the freaking governments now days.. and THAT is the problem.
 
And why would have American banks failed? Because government demanded they loaned money to morons that
couldn't pay it back - period.


PeteEU said:
Just as they should have let the American banks fail right?



No you need to wake up and see that it is the banks that often control the freaking governments now days.. and THAT is the problem.
Click to expand...
 
CalGun said:
Cyprus: panic as savings levy is imposed | World news | guardian.co.uk

Cyprus like many europeans just spends willy nilly almost as bad as America.
So the people wake up to find their savings accounts garnished. Yeah - they can do
that.

Wake up people. Keep over spending, keep taxing too little and you end up with
panic.
Click to expand...

Funny, I see a difference between the largest economy on the planet and a little island nation.

Maybe this explains why conservative economic policies always fail. They think the US is like Cypress.
 
head of joaquin said:
Funny, I see a difference between the largest economy on the planet and a little island nation.

Maybe this explains why conservative economic policies always fail. They think the US is like Cypress.
Click to expand...

Get your facts straight when you're critizing the elderly, they have all the time in the world to check the facts. This one leaves way too much room for failure. Iceland, Ireland, the UK.., lots of island nations who seem to believe the sea protects them against outflow of capital. Have you allready figured out when the difference stops being a difference, when socialist policies fail like they're supposed to?
 
Djoop said:
Get your facts straight when you're critizing the elderly, they have all the time in the world to check the facts. This one leaves way too much room for failure. Iceland, Ireland, the UK.., lots of island nations who seem to believe the sea protects them against outflow of capital. Have you allready figured out when the difference stops being a difference, when socialist policies fail like they're supposed to?
Click to expand...

So the US economy is like Iceland and Ireland?

I see a pattern of misinformation forming.
 
gunner said:
It actually amounts to theft, as some are suggesting.
Click to expand...
How could this possibly be construed as theft? All they're doing is asking the wealtheist folks to pay a little bit more.

(And yes, that WAS meant to be sarcastic)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom