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Redskins Name Lawsuit Heard By Federal Board

I work with several tribal counselors, relatives of a tribal chief, and people that work at the walk-in center. They refer to themselves by their specific tribe, but as a general term...Indian. They also refer to themselves using a common Canadian descriptor..."first people".

During a multicultural presentation a few years back a young fresh faced masters student nervously asked one of the panel members "I dont want to be inappropriate...but...Im not sure...what to call you..." His response...well...I prefer 'Joe'....

I'll admit, when I attended NNALEA two years ago I was surprised how many of the individuals used the word Indian. You grow up for so long being told "offensive, offensive, offensive" and then suddenly see those that its supposed to be "offensive against" using it and it just kind of makes you blink your eyes and wonder who really is the individuals pushing these things sometimes.

Living in Washington, the ridiculous faux outrage over this by those bleeding hearts in the media who cry every night because they couldn't make it writing about politics and got stuck in sports drives me nuts. It drives me nuts because it's nothing but a "Feel good" cause that they can clap themselves on the back for and act like they're doing some great, good deed while being horribly ignorant of reality. If Mike Wise or Jay Reed wants to help raise awareness to the plight of Native American's in this nation why don't they focus some of their time on the horrible conditions in many reservations? The ASTONISHINGLY high percentage of young women that are raped on reservations? The prevalence of child AND elder abuse? The massive, widespread, devastating amounts of unemployment within the population? But no...those would be tough, those would be things that would ACTUALLY help native Americans, they need to focus on a name of a football team that doesn't invoke hateful views or thoughts towards native americans and will cause ZERO change in the general lives of the majority of them.

It's idiotic, disgusting, politically correct, make myself feel good because I'm fighting "for the cause" hollow activism.

The funniest thing is Wise likes to bitch and moan about the "caricature" of native americans the Redskins supposedly cause to have (never mind that the official things that were often referenced...a mascot, the band with headdress, etc is gone) and yet if you asked him if he thinks the name "Buffalo Bills" is ALSO offensive he'd look at you like a bloody fool. Buffalo Bill Cody, who the team is named after, was one of the biggest individuals responsible for ingraining the notion of the feathered and painted warrior savage as the last threat against civilization into the American psyche. Not to mention his hand in the demolishing of the American Buffalo population with his own, and popularizing the notion, of extensive wasteful hunts of them. Activism without thought is ignorance.
 
Swing and a miss. My grandmother grew up on a reservation and I'm a card carrying member of the tribe I belong to.

I'll echo your own comment to another poster. Grats?

I have no issue with people believing that something shouldn't or should offend someone. If you think native americans SHOULD be offended by the name, fine. If the other poster feels that htey shouldn't be offended by the name, fine. That's individual peoples opinions of what they FEEL people should think or feel. I don't rightly care about that.

My issue is with those who would suggest or think to speak about what large groups of people DO feel with no evidence outside of anecdotal self experience or pointing to extremely small groups of the whole that just happen to be very loud. Though I will say that my rant in the later half of my post was less aimed at you specifically, as you weren't trying to declare what native americans think, but rather to the general mindset of many of those pushing for the name change.
 
I'll admit, when I attended NNALEA two years ago I was surprised how many of the individuals used the word Indian. You grow up for so long being told "offensive, offensive, offensive" and then suddenly see those that its supposed to be "offensive against" using it and it just kind of makes you blink your eyes and wonder who really is the individuals pushing these things sometimes.

Living in Washington, the ridiculous faux outrage over this by those bleeding hearts in the media who cry every night because they couldn't make it writing about politics and got stuck in sports drives me nuts. It drives me nuts because it's nothing but a "Feel good" cause that they can clap themselves on the back for and act like they're doing some great, good deed while being horribly ignorant of reality. If Mike Wise or Jay Reed wants to help raise awareness to the plight of Native American's in this nation why don't they focus some of their time on the horrible conditions in many reservations? The ASTONISHINGLY high percentage of young women that are raped on reservations? The prevalence of child AND elder abuse? The massive, widespread, devastating amounts of unemployment within the population? But no...those would be tough, those would be things that would ACTUALLY help native Americans, they need to focus on a name of a football team that doesn't invoke hateful views or thoughts towards native americans and will cause ZERO change in the general lives of the majority of them.

It's idiotic, disgusting, politically correct, make myself feel good because I'm fighting "for the cause" hollow activism.

The funniest thing is Wise likes to bitch and moan about the "caricature" of native americans the Redskins supposedly cause to have (never mind that the official things that were often referenced...a mascot, the band with headdress, etc is gone) and yet if you asked him if he thinks the name "Buffalo Bills" is ALSO offensive he'd look at you like a bloody fool. Buffalo Bill Cody, who the team is named after, was one of the biggest individuals responsible for ingraining the notion of the feathered and painted warrior savage as the last threat against civilization into the American psyche. Not to mention his hand in the demolishing of the American Buffalo population with his own, and popularizing the notion, of extensive wasteful hunts of them. Activism without thought is ignorance.

Completely agree. Domestic violence and sexual assault is very commonplace and unfortunately, the segregation (real and implied, self or otherwise) prevents women from seeking help. Drug abuse is rampant, gang participation is commonplace, unemployment (in areas without casinos) is staggering. I know people that have taken fed jobs providing clinical services on some of the reservations and they say it is a completely frustrating exercise. Most that come to see them are court (tribal) ordered and it is just a means of filling squares. Investigation of allegations is virtually impossible. In many ways its not unlike trying to get services to illegal immigrants. There is simply no trust, no real opportunity, no hope that it is going to get better, so...acceptance.

But lets focus on the PC concerns about the names of sports teams. The Seminoles seem to have worked stuff out satisfactorily, as have many other sports teams. In Atlanta several years ago (may have changed) one of the 'nods' was that he team made contributions to tribal affairs and allowed the tribes to provide vendor goods for sale at FC stadium.

Of course...we COULD just remove all Indian names from schools, cities, streets, etc.
 
What would we call the state "Red People" if that happened?

Here's an interesting article and take in regards to the origins of the word. I'll note, while I find it interesting I agree with the Smithsonians researcher in regards to the origins and the controversy:

Goddard, aware of the lawsuit and Harjo's arguments, said that "you could believe everything in my article" and still oppose current public usage of "redskin."

But still, it's an interesting read, LINK
 
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The Washington Reds. That sounds right to me.
 
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Though I will say that my rant in the later half of my post was less aimed at you specifically, as you weren't trying to declare what native americans think, but rather to the general mindset of many of those pushing for the name change.

Fair enough. I also am guilty of using someone post to remark on the general mindset of a thread.

I'll echo your own comment to another poster. Grats?
The first part of your post was directly aimed at me claiming I'm a white liberal that's offended for everyone else.

I have no issue with people believing that something shouldn't or should offend someone. If you think native americans SHOULD be offended by the name, fine. If the other poster feels that htey shouldn't be offended by the name, fine. That's individual peoples opinions of what they FEEL people should think or feel. I don't rightly care about that.
I don't think the argument should be whether someone SHOULD feel offended or not. The argument is if people are offended or not.

I personally am not overly offended by the name because in general I'm not easily offended....but! to use your own earlier argument. I'm pretty sure it rubs a lot of minority groups in a bad way when a white person tells them what they should or should not be offended by.

My issue is with those who would suggest or think to speak about what large groups of people DO feel with no evidence outside of anecdotal self experience or pointing to extremely small groups of the whole that just happen to be very loud.
That's how virtually everything works. A couple million NRA members have dominated the discussion on gun control for decades for example.
 
What would we call the state "Red People" if that happened?
Eventually we have to not use any names. PETA can sue on behalf of the animals. The "Padres"...oh no...its insulting to have a team that bad associated to your name. Giants...what...we are offending exceptionally tall people? That's horrid! Patriots...hmmm...surely 'Patriots' is a correlation to violent zealots.
 
The first part of your post was directly aimed at me claiming I'm a white liberal that's offended for everyone else.

Looking back, I did see I referenced you as that as well. In that case, I was wrong and my apologies.

I don't think the argument should be whether someone SHOULD feel offended or not. The argument is if people are offended or not.

I agree here. And that was the basis of my initial post. I'd love to see a more modern scientific, or even unscientific but still reputable, poll or survey done. But based on the ones that HAVE been done, I think people are hard pressed to say that "native americans" as some kind of significant group are offended by the name or feel that the name needs to change. Those polls go contrary to what many in the media, and in the public, try to tell us Native Americans ACTUALLY think.

I agree that it rubs people the wrong way when a white person tells them they shouldn't be offended by something. But I think it's also rather insulting, and far less thought about by white people, when white individuals act as if they know better than the minorities in question and basically state that something is "offensive" to those people even when they don't think so themselves.

That's how virtually everything works. A couple million NRA members have dominated the discussion on gun control for decades for example.

True, but when you have polls done you're not seeing 90% of people that are part of the NRA having no issue with the primary things the NRA is trying to push.
 
Why would a team use a derogatory name for themselves? I'm part native american and I don't see the offense. If they called themselves the "WooWoo Savages" I might cry foul. What's with the word police lately don't we have enough real problems to tackle?
 
Eventually we have to not use any names. PETA can sue on behalf of the animals. The "Padres"...oh no...its insulting to have a team that bad associated to your name. Giants...what...we are offending exceptionally tall people? That's horrid! Patriots...hmmm...surely 'Patriots' is a correlation to violent zealots.

Eh, the "everything offends someone" to me argument isn't a strong one in my eye. There are a FEW Instances...like the FIGHTING Irish...that can be comparable. For example, Yankee was used at one time in this country as a derogatory term and is still OCCASIONALLY used as such, but it's largely seen as benign if not positive. But when people start spreading it out to things like the "Giants" which is all to common, it kind of loses steam in my mind.

In part because while I think their argument is idiotic half the time, I still have to put my mind in theirs to see the REASON for their argument. And the reason is a misguided notion of it being offensive to a large group of people based on race/ethnicity/nationality which is a style of status that they hold as extra special. So things like Giants or even Patriots doesn't really fit.

But yeah...I do find it interesting that because a state basically refers to Native Americans in the same way as the teams name, but does it in a language connected to Native Americans, no one bats an eye. The Team of the Redskins is bad, the State of the Red People...a-okay.
 
The underlying complaint and evidence presented by the plaintiff is false. "Redskin" was not the word used for "bloody scalps", or the plaintiff has yet to provide any evidence that to back that claim. In fact, "Redskin" is what American Indian tribes called themselves. It dates back to at least the 1760s and possibly back to 1699 as the earliest source.

This linguistic professor found much the same thing.

So no, you can't make crap up and then demand that others change to suit your imagination.
 
Getting worked up over such meaningless minutiae says more about the offended than the offender.

I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't like it if the Texans had chosen the Houston White Devils for example. Racially offensive language is not appropriate. There shouldn't be a team called the Miami kikes, or the Phoenix spicks either.
 
Random points...

  • I fail to see the legitimacy of the outrage.
  • There are plenty of indians who are just fine with it, but you almost never see them interviewed as a matter of the media presenting balance.
  • There's a part of me that wants to stock up on Redskins merchandise. Not for any investment purpose, but just to wear it when the name does change. (I think it's a matter of time, unfortunately.)
 
I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't like it if the Texans had chosen the Houston White Devils for example. Racially offensive language is not appropriate. There shouldn't be a team called the Miami kikes, or the Phoenix spicks either.

1) On what do you base the notion that the name is "offensive"?

2) I'd have no issue with a team named the "White Devils" where it's depicted as their mascot and theme is that of a "Devil" ala the Blue Devils, Sun Devils, Red Devils, etc.

3) Even if you removed political correctness out of the equation, you wouldn't see a team named the Miami Kikes, the Phoenix Spicks, or the "houston white [people] devils" because when you look at the entire swatch of sports you don't see teams naming themselves off of things that are viewed as negative. You don't see "The Chicago Hobos". You don't see the San Franciso Dumbasses. You don't see the Seattle Crack Addicts. You don't see the Boston WASPS. You don't see the Mississippi Hillbillies or the Birmingham Racists. That's because a fan base typically isn't in favor of supporting, cheering for, and taking pride in something that is inherently negative in the modern societal understanding and notion.
 
Random points...

  • I fail to see the legitimacy of the outrage.
  • There are plenty of indians who are just fine with it, but you almost never see them interviewed as a matter of the media presenting balance.
  • There's a part of me that wants to stock up on Redskins merchandise. Not for any investment purpose, but just to wear it when the name does change. (I think it's a matter of time, unfortunately.)

If they lose the copyright battle and change to Warriors (Snyder's long had that trademarked I believe as a "just in case") you're going to see a massive market for counterfeit Redskin stuff.

People still at times say Dixie instead of DC during the fight song, and I think changing the actual name of the franchise is many magnitudes greater than shifting a word in the fight song of a team. They may end up someday being the Washington Warriors, but they won't be referenced simply by that name by actual fans if it does ever happen.
 
Random points...

  • I fail to see the legitimacy of the outrage.
  • There are plenty of indians who are just fine with it, but you almost never see them interviewed as a matter of the media presenting balance.
  • There's a part of me that wants to stock up on Redskins merchandise. Not for any investment purpose, but just to wear it when the name does change. (I think it's a matter of time, unfortunately.)

I would not worry yet.

The first round of this took 17 years, and did not change.

It will most likely remain the same.
 
I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't like it if the Texans had chosen the Houston White Devils for example. Racially offensive language is not appropriate. There shouldn't be a team called the Miami kikes, or the Phoenix spicks either.

Apples and oranges.

The name "Redskins" wasn't meant to disparage or insult anyone. It was meant in the same context as "Warriors" or "Braves."

Intent is the key here.
 
I'm honestly lost on why it matters if people are offended over what teams name themselves.

Well Native-Americans have roots of being victims to genocide. I could see why some would be mad/scared to be portrayed as mythical type humans with a fat picture of an Indian. If 1 person wants to call someone something then so be it. If that person is asked to stop and they dont want to. Then so be it. But it gets a little awkward when whole corporations and crap are playing along with it all. Maybe they should strike up a deal with a certain tribe and change their name to that specific tribe. Somehow workout kickbacks to eachother. They could be the first team to move their stadium onto sovereign Indian land next to a casino. :p
 
The name change is going to have to happen eventually. Might as well change it sooner rather than later. It's only a name, after all. All i hope is that when the name change occurs that they let the fans vote on a couple good options, unlike when Abe Pollin put up "sea stallions" or some bull**** as an option for replacing the Bullets name.
 
The name change is going to have to happen eventually. Might as well change it sooner rather than later. It's only a name, after all. All i hope is that when the name change occurs that they let the fans vote on a couple good options, unlike when Abe Pollin put up "sea stallions" or some bull**** as an option for replacing the Bullets name.

Disagree with the first statement, STRONGLY disagree with the second statement, and in terms of the third I think it's pretty clear if my memory serves me that the name would be changed to "Warriors" as Snyder already has the rights to it on hand as a "Just in case".

Also, I'm praying that within the next 5 years Ted turns them back into the Bullets. FFS, Wizards? Really? Mother****ing Wizards?
 
Disagree with the first statement, STRONGLY disagree with the second statement, and in terms of the third I think it's pretty clear if my memory serves me that the name would be changed to "Warriors" as Snyder already has the rights to it on hand as a "Just in case".

Also, I'm praying that within the next 5 years Ted turns them back into the Bullets. FFS, Wizards? Really? Mother****ing Wizards?

"Wizards" was the best option out of several horrendous options. Also "Warriors" just sounds too unoriginal which is why I hope that there's fan input if this happens. Also Snyder would be mad at the Golden State Warriors lol.
 
The name change is going to have to happen eventually.
don't think so
Might as well change it sooner rather than later.
yes, like coca cola is going to change its established name eventually, too
just as with coke, there is no business basis to necessitate change

It's only a name, after all.
no, it's a brand
one the owners have spent a **** load of money establishing in the minds of the consumers
why, after spending so much to establish a well known brand, would they then choose to change it

All i hope is that when the name change occurs that they let the fans vote on a couple good options, unlike when Abe Pollin put up "sea stallions" or some bull**** as an option for replacing the Bullets name.
won't be necessary
but this illustrates my point about the folly of changing the name of a well established brand
should they choose to make a change, the replacement name had better be MUCH better than the one they abandoned
so, come up with that better name and re-brand
until then, nothing is going to change
 
Apples and oranges.

The name "Redskins" wasn't meant to disparage or insult anyone. It was meant in the same context as "Warriors" or "Braves."

Intent is the key here.
Many of the same people complain about "Indians" and "Braves", also. Not only that, but they used to complain about the Golden State Warriors until the Warriors changed their mascot/logo to be a neutral... and thus neutered... character. (Kinda fits with the Warriors, though)


The name change is going to have to happen eventually. Might as well change it sooner rather than later. It's only a name, after all. All i hope is that when the name change occurs that they let the fans vote on a couple good options, unlike when Abe Pollin put up "sea stallions" or some bull**** as an option for replacing the Bullets name.
Where's the line? When is it "...just a name" and when is it worth taking a stand as a matter of principle to keep political correctness from going too far?
 
Hey look at all these hethen savages attack a small kid! (on a seperate note on the cartoon: WOW!! The nazi symbol on the native Americans tents. The 2 people playing with tones on an infinity symbol and blowing the trumpet to war while tied to infinity with a fire of Damocles beneath them. 3rd reich type invasion)




Next ya'll going to try to tell me that cartoons of black dudes with grossely overdrawn chompin on watermelons and polishing each other's black feet isnt racist.

In the end I think the name change should come from the owner and not be forced. But I think he should make that choice, yes.
 
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