House passes Violence Against Women Act after GOP version defeated.

Capster78 · Feb 28, 2013

Washington (CNN) -- An expanded Violence Against Women Act won bipartisan approval on Thursday from the U.S. House after Republicans failed to pass their own proposal due to a party split on an issue important to women and minority groups.

The measure now goes to President Barack Obama, who said in a statement that it was "an important step towards making sure no one in America is forced to live in fear."

"I look forward to signing it into law as soon as it hits my desk," Obama said.

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Thursday's votes reflected an emerging political reality in the GOP-led House, with a minority of Republicans joining Democrats to pass legislation that has broad public support, including from increasingly influential demographics such as Hispanic Americans.
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By a vote of 166-257, the GOP version of the Violence Against Women Act failed to win a majority after almost 90 minutes of debate. The House then voted 286-138 to pass the Senate version, with 87 Republicans joining all 199 Democrats to provide majority support.

Originally passed in 1994 and reauthorized since, the act provides support for organizations that serve domestic violence victims. Criminal prosecutions of abusers are generally the responsibility of local authorities, but the act stiffened sentences for stalking under federal law.

Supporters credit the act with sharply reducing the number of lives lost to domestic violence over the past two decades.

Last year, the House and Senate were unable to compromise on another extension of the act, with Republicans opposing Democratic attempts to specify inclusion of native Americans, undocumented immigrants and lesbian, transgender and bisexual women.

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However, exit polls showed Obama won strong support among women, Latino voters and gay and lesbian voters in the November election that also strengthened the Democratic majority in the Senate and weakened the Republican majority in the House.

Republicans then changed their stance and agreed to bring up the measure in the new Congress as long as they could offer their own version.

The Republican proposal deleted provisions from the Senate measure that gave tribal authorities jurisdiction to prosecute cases on Indian reservations, specifically targeted discrimination of LGBT victims, and allowed undocumented immigrant survivors of domestic violence to seek legal status.

In debate before Thursday's votes, Rep. Kevin Cramer, R-North Dakota, said the Senate version includes legal precedents of expanded sovereignty that could be subject to court challenge.

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"Please consider the damage we have done if a court overturns this act and its protection all because we wanted a good slogan instead of a good law," Cramer said.

House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi of California and others repeatedly questioned why Republicans would seek to weaken a measure that received strong bipartisan support in a 78-22 Senate vote earlier this year.

A majority of Senate Republicans backed the act, along with every woman senator regardless of party, Pelosi noted.

"It's really hard to explain why, what eyes the Republicans are looking through, that they do not see the folly of their ways in the legislation they are proposing," Pelosi said.

Democratic Rep. Gwen Moore of Wisconsin, herself a rape victim, paraphrased the question of rights activist Sojourner Truth, a 19th century escaped slave and civil rights advocate.

"Ain't they women?" Moore shouted in reference to native American, undocumented immigrant and LGBT women.

In response, Republican Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers of Washington challenged Democratic claims that the GOP version excluded any women, saying it was all-inclusive.

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House Majority Leader Eric Cantor of Virginia said the goal was to "make sure all women are safe," and he described the Republican version as an attempt to "improve on" what the Senate sent over.

However, Pelosi noted that hundreds of advocacy groups supported the Senate version as the best way forward.

"This is a remarkable day because we have clarity between the two proposals," she said, noting one had support from both parties in the Senate and the president while the other was opposed by "almost everybody who has anything to do with the issue of violence against women."

The final vote on Thursday followed the same pattern as votes on other legislation at the end of the previous Congress, including the agreement to avoid some impacts of the fiscal cliff.

A divide between conservative and more moderate Republicans prevented House GOP leaders from being able to pass their proposed fiscal cliff legislation at the end of the year.

Under public pressure ratcheted up by Obama, the House ended up approving a Democratic proposal that raised taxes on the nation's top income earners, a key campaign theme in the November election opposed by the GOP.

The measure passed with backing from most or all Democrats and dozens of Republicans.

Such a dynamic signals the continuing inability of House Speaker John Boehner to marshal his GOP members on some of the most contentious issues coming up, such as deficit reduction and immigration reform.

Boehner risks his standing as a party leader if he continues conceding on measures that become law without majority support from House Republicans, which also would fuel continuing unrest by conservatives who traditionally comprise the GOP base.

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According to advocacy groups, the Senate version of the Violence Against Women Act approved Tuesday strengthens protections of particular groups of women at particular risk.

For example, one in three native women will be raped in their lifetime, according to the Indian Law Resource Center. Three in five will be physically assaulted, and native women also are killed at a rate 10 times the national average, the center said.

The National Congress of American Indians addressed the issue in a December 20 letter to Cantor.

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It described situations in which beatings and rapes by non-native men were declined for prosecution at a federal level and returned to a tribal court as a misdemeanor.

Federal law currently prohibits tribal courts from imposing a jail sentence of more than a year, so they generally do not prosecute felonies. In many instances, such cases are dismissed altogether and a defendant can walk free until a grand jury indictment can be obtained.

"The federal criminal justice system is simply not equipped to handle local crimes, and this is the primary reason that tribes seek local control over these crimes that are plaguing our communities," the letter said.

On undocumented immigrants, Human Rights Watch has found that immigrant farm workers are especially at risk for domestic abuse and argued provisions in the Senate bill "would go some way toward fixing the problem."

Those in the LGBT community are another high-risk group that will be affected by the Violence Against Women Act.

They experience violence at the same rate as heterosexuals but are less likely to report it. When they do, many are denied services.

About 45% of LGBT victims were turned away when they sought help from a domestic violence shelter and nearly 55% of those who sought protection orders were denied them, according to the National Task Force to End Sexual and Domestic Violence Against Women.

Opinion: GOP House's inaction on VAWA shows bigotry

Vice President Joe Biden, who helped spearhead the original Violence Against Women Act in 1994 when he was a U.S. senator, said Thursday that domestic violence dropped by 64% since then.

"I am pleased that this progress will continue, with new tools for cops and prosecutors to hold abusers and rapists accountable, and more support for all victims of these crimes," Biden said in a statement.

I am just curious to hear why people support this bill. So first, I would like to find out from those who support the "Violence Against Women Act" as to why they support it? Then I will state my view after that.

Jerry · Mar 1, 2013

Capster78 said:
I am just curious to hear why people support this bill. So first, I would like to find out from those who support the "Violence Against Women Act" as to why they support it? Then I will state my view after that.

Both sides were trying to pass anti-violence legislation.

The Left wanted language which played more to identity-politics, while the Right wanted universal language not specific to ethnicity or race.

No one was opposing anti-violence legislation, the fight was over minutia.

vendur · Mar 1, 2013

"immigrant survivors of domestic violence to seek legal status"

Umm, ya.

Another piece of bull**** crapped out by the demonazis and their neocon enablers.

Capster78 · Mar 3, 2013

Wow, I am very surprised there were not more responses! I thought for sure that since this had passed congress that there was a majority of support for this and that support would be represented on this forum. I may have an idea why those who support it have not chimed in. They may have preempted my argument and are avoiding it by not chiming in.

My question is, why do we need a law that criminalizes violence against females? What offenses does this legislation put forward that are not already addressed by current laws? Murder, Assault, Rape, Harassment and many other violations of ones rights are already addressed by current law.

To add to this, why is there a focus on violence against women? Men die 7 years earlier than women. Men make up over 90% of the workplace deaths. Men are by far more a victim of violence then women. There are several other metrics that are hard statistic proof that men are the people we should be focusing on.

And in the end, is this not completely sexist to begin with? Why do women deserve special protection against violence when men are the majority of victims of violence? Is a woman's life, or a woman's right from violence more valuable then a man?

I think this falls right in line with the current misandric society we live in in the west. What do you think?

sangha · Mar 3, 2013

Capster78 said:
My question is, why do we need a law that criminalizes violence against females?

We don't, which is why VAWA does not apply only to crimes when they are committed against females. When men are raped, they are given just as much protection under VAWA as any female

What offenses does this legislation put forward that are not already addressed by current laws? Murder, Assault, Rape, Harassment and many other violations of ones rights are already addressed by current law.

VAWA has enhanced the laws concerning cyber-stalking for example. More importantly, it sets our rules and provides grants that help ensure that these cases are fully and properly prosecuted

To add to this, why is there a focus on violence against women? Men die 7 years earlier than women. Men make up over 90% of the workplace deaths. Men are by far more a victim of violence then women. There are several other metrics that are hard statistic proof that men are the people we should be focusing on.

There is not focus on violence against women. Just because we don't call OSHA the "Dept to protect working men" doesn't mean that it doesn't end up benefitting men more than women. The fact is, some laws are going to end up benefitting one group more than another simply because the reality is that certain problems affect one group more than another. I dont know why you're surprised that a law that focuses on crimes like domestic violence, rape, cyber-stalking, sexual abuse, etc ends up benefiting more women than men, when you're not at all surprised, or opposed to OSHA even though it ends up protecting more men than women

And in the end, is this not completely sexist to begin with? Why do women deserve special protection against violence when men are the majority of victims of violence? Is a woman's life, or a woman's right from violence more valuable then a man?

So it's sexist to prosecute rape and domestic violence?

Here's a link to the actual bill. Please post a quote from the law that you think is sexist

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-113s47enr/pdf/BILLS-113s47enr.pdf

I think this falls right in line with the current misandric society we live in in the west. What do you think?[/QUOTE]

Capster78 · Mar 3, 2013

sangha said:
We don't, which is why VAWA does not apply only to crimes when they are committed against females. When men are raped, they are given just as much protection under VAWA as any female

I have not read the specifics of the law, but now that you have said this, I will. If this is perhaps the case, then why is it called the "Violence against Women act". I am a bit confused here why this name has been attached to it if it applies equally to men? If the laws here protect both sexes, why could it not have been called "Violence against People act".

VAWA has enhanced the laws concerning cyber-stalking for example. More importantly, it sets our rules and provides grants that help ensure that these cases are fully and properly prosecuted

Why did this have to be done in the framework of an act that protects violence against women? And what is wrong with the current harassment laws that don't cover cyber stalking?

There is not focus on violence against women.

There certainly is a focus on violence against women. For the last 20-30 years men have been vilified in the media and by the government as rapists. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count how many times I have been thru sexual assault training which focuses on only one side of the issue. That is the issue of men to act appropriately in the workplace. It never seems to address the other side of that issue which is educating women on preventing themselves from becoming a victim. Now by saying this, I realize that I am treading dangerous waters because it will sound like a "blaming the victim" policy. But we can't ignore that there are certain things men who commit sexual assault or rape look for. To educate these women on these things empowers them to protect themselves from such an attack. Things such as, dressing appropriately at work to prevent workplace sexual harassment. Or, if you do happen to be wearing very revealing clothing, make sure you are not out by yourself at night surrounded by a bunch of drunk men. Basically, educating women on situations where they may be taking unnecessary risks. Instead, the focus is only on a man's behavior.

Just because we don't call OSHA the "Dept to protect working men" doesn't mean that it doesn't end up benefitting men more than women. The fact is, some laws are going to end up benefitting one group more than another simply because the reality is that certain problems affect one group more than another.

You still have not really addressed the question of what problems effect women that are not already covered by current laws?

I dont know why you're surprised that a law that focuses on crimes like domestic violence, rape, cyber-stalking, sexual abuse, etc ends up benefiting more women than men, when you're not at all surprised, or opposed to OSHA even though it ends up protecting more men than women

You're right on this point. I am actually surprised why laws that cover domestic violence, rape, cyber-stalking, sexual abuse end up benefiting women more than men. There have been studies that indicate these crimes are committed against men at an equal rate they are committed against women. So instead of focusing on the under reporting of these crimes against women, we really should be focusing on the under reporting of these crimes by men. When studies indicate that men are affected as often as women by these issues but we have reactive programs for women due to the high rate of incidents, it seems to me there is an indication that under reporting of these crimes by men are a much larger issue.

So it's sexist to prosecute rape and domestic violence?

For one sex, yes.

sangha · Mar 3, 2013

Capster78 said:
I have not read the specifics of the law, but now that you have said this, I will. If this is perhaps the case, then why is it called the "Violence against Women act". I am a bit confused here why this name has been attached to it if it applies equally to men? If the laws here protect both sexes, why could it not have been called "Violence against People act".

So the entire basis for your complaint is that the word "women" appears in the title of the law, even though the title has absolutely no effect on what a law does?

Really?

And the word women is in the title (and not people) because the crimes it addresses are crime which affect women far more often than men. The better question is why isn't OSHA called "The Dept That Protects Men at Work"?

Why did this have to be done in the framework of an act that protects violence against women? And what is wrong with the current harassment laws that don't cover cyber stalking?

Once again, your premise that this acts protects women and only women is wrong. It protects men who are victims of the crimes just as much as it protects women

And before VRA, cyber-stalking wasn't a crime under fed law

There certainly is a focus on violence against women. For the last 20-30 years men have been vilified in the media and by the government as rapists. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count how many times I have been thru sexual assault training which focuses on only one side of the issue. That is the issue of men to act appropriately in the workplace. It never seems to address the other side of that issue which is educating women on preventing themselves from becoming a victim. Now by saying this, I realize that I am treading dangerous waters because it will sound like a "blaming the victim" policy. But we can't ignore that there are certain things men who commit sexual assault or rape look for. To educate these women on these things empowers them to protect themselves from such an attack. Things such as, dressing appropriately at work to prevent workplace sexual harassment. Or, if you do happen to be wearing very revealing clothing, make sure you are not out by yourself at night surrounded by a bunch of drunk men. Basically, educating women on situations where they may be taking unnecessary risks. Instead, the focus is only on a man's behavior.

This is nonsense. I worked for people who actually designed such training. There was never a focus on one side of the issue. The advice to act appropriately was directed at everyone, and gave info to people about how to protect themselves from, and respond to, sexually inappropriate behavior in the workplace.

Abd as far as the media goes, it goes absolutely ape-**** when a woman is accused of sexual harrassment or any sex related crime

You still have not really addressed the question of what problems effect women that are not already covered by current laws?

Again, VAWA doesn't single out crimes that only affect women.

And the majority of VAWA doesn't criminalize anything. Most of it deals with things like providing resources to local law enforcement to help them prosecute these crimes, providing help to orgs that provide support services to the victims of these crimes, etc

You're right on this point. I am actually surprised why laws that cover domestic violence, rape, cyber-stalking, sexual abuse end up benefiting women more than men. There have been studies that indicate these crimes are committed against men at an equal rate they are committed against women. So instead of focusing on the under reporting of these crimes against women, we really should be focusing on the under reporting of these crimes by men. When studies indicate that men are affected as often as women by these issues but we have reactive programs for women due to the high rate of incidents, it seems to me there is an indication that under reporting of these crimes by men are a much larger issue.

I've never heard of such studies, but VAWA provides services and encourages reporting of victims of domestic abuse regardless of sex or gender

For one sex, yes.

Now you're just being dishonest. VAWA protects men who have been raped also. For example:

‘‘(17) developing, enlarging, or strengthening programs

addressing sexual assault against men, women, and youth in

correctional and detention settings;

from S.47-13

Capster78 · Mar 3, 2013

sangha said:
So the entire basis for your complaint is that the word "women" appears in the title of the law, even though the title has absolutely no effect on what a law does?

Yes, I have a problem with the word women appearing in the title of the law. The reason I have a problem with it is rooted in my original argument. It all falls back to a public awareness aspect. By passing this legislation and naming the way it was named, the authors are trying to bring violence against women into the public eye. That is why most of the protesters and supporters on the picket lines were women, not men. I hate to repeat my original argument and sound like a broken record but the point still stands. Why are we bringing violence against women into the public eye when we have a much larger problem, which is violence against men? I am not saying that we should not be aware of violence against women.But it seems, that by passing a law which only brings attention to women we are ignoring that men are dealing with this in a greater degree. And that seems to not be the case based on both the trends in the well being of men, as well as the lack in media attention about these trends. It is still fact that men die 7 years earlier than women. If this were reversed and women were dieing 7 years earlier then men, do you think we would not know about it? Of course we would. And there would be several programs set up to study why this is the case, and immediate legislation and funding to resolve the findings of that study. A good example of this, is the breast cancer awareness movement. Men have a similar illness called prostate cancer that they die of in near equal numbers. But we rarely hear about it and it is not funded nearly as much as breast cancer is. That is just an example of what I am talking about.

And the word women is in the title (and not people) because the crimes it addresses are crime which affect women far more often than men. The better question is why isn't OSHA called "The Dept That Protects Men at Work"?

That is a good question, why is OSHA not called something like "The Mens department of labor protection". I think if it were, there would be much more visibility on issues that effect men. Men make up the VAST majority of workers who work in dangerous environments. They also make up more than 90% of the work related deaths. Now, lets do a little bit or reasoning here. What if congress passed legislation that protected women from workplace dangers and completely ignored that 90% of the workplace deaths are men? Well, that is exactly what they are doing by trying to name this law "violence against women act". When men account for a vast majority of violent deaths in relation to crime, war and the workplace. It raises awareness of violence of half the population, and not only that, it raises awareness on the half that actually suffers less from violence.

Once again, your premise that this acts protects women and only women is wrong. It protects men who are victims of the crimes just as much as it protects women

How does it protect men equally when there is no raising of public awareness that men suffer, in large, even more from violence. The focus here is not on the plight of men in respect to violence, but the plight of women. If there is no public awareness, then the public fails to identify a problem. And by naming this "Violence against Women Act" it does nothing in making the public aware that men suffer from violence as well. Which in turn, does not raise concern for men. Which is why we see the trends we see today that I mentioned in my original argument. It is because the public is not aware, thus not concerned.

And before VRA, cyber-stalking wasn't a crime under fed law

I disagree, but that is moot in large. We can argue over the details, but by in large, that is not the point of my argument.

This is nonsense. I worked for people who actually designed such training. There was never a focus on one side of the issue. The advice to act appropriately was directed at everyone, and gave info to people about how to protect themselves from, and respond to, sexually inappropriate behavior in the workplace.

No, it was directed at men. I do not understand how you could think that it was directed at everyone. What was the reason for the training? If it was directed at everyone, then why did it only start existing once women entered the workforce? And if it is directed at everyone, why does it only objectify men as the villans and women as the innocent victims. It does nothing to hold women accountable for their sexuality. It does nothing to educate women on how to avoid potentially dangerous situations. And it does nothing to educate men on keeping themselves safe from potential false accusations. If this training is to be helpful to everyone, it needs to apply to everyones concerns, not just the concerns of one sex.

Abd as far as the media goes, it goes absolutely ape-**** when a woman is accused of sexual harrassment or any sex related crime

Do you think it does this to the degree that it goes crazy when men are accused of sexual harassment. Has there ever been a female version of the Duke Lacross team case?

And the majority of VAWA doesn't criminalize anything. Most of it deals with things like providing resources to local law enforcement to help them prosecute these crimes, providing help to orgs that provide support services to the victims of these crimes, etc

Apparently the victim of these crimes are only women, which is why the law is called "Violence Against Women Act". Otherwise WHY WOULD YOU CALL IT THAT! You still have not given a strait answer other than to deflect the question by saying the laws protect men as well. If that is the case then why was there a need to call it "Violence Against Women Act"?

I've never heard of such studies, but VAWA provides services and encourages reporting of victims of domestic abuse regardless of sex or gender

Of course you haven't. No one has, and that is the problem.

sangha · Mar 3, 2013

Capster78 said:
Yes, I have a problem with the word women appearing in the title of the law.

That is petty

The reason I have a problem with it is rooted in my original argument. It all falls back to a public awareness aspect. By passing this legislation and naming the way it was named, the authors are trying to bring violence against women into the public eye. That is why most of the protesters and supporters on the picket lines were women, not men. I hate to repeat my original argument and sound like a broken record but the point still stands. Why are we bringing violence against women into the public eye when we have a much larger problem, which is violence against men?

Your claims about the intent and motive are unsubstantiated, and violence against men receives a lot of attention in the medai

I am not saying that we should seems to not be the case based on both the trends in the well being of men, as well as the lack in media attention about these trends. It is still fact that men die 7 years earlier than women. If this were reversed and women were dieing 7 years earlier then men, do you think we would not know about it? Of course we would. And there would be several programs set up to study why this is the case, and immediate legislation and funding to resolve the findings of that study. A good example of this, is the breast cancer awareness movement. Men have a similar illness called prostate cancer that they die of in near equal numbers. But we rarely hear about it and it is not funded nearly as much as breast cancer is. That is just an example of what I am talking about.

The media plays plenty of attention to issues that affect men more than women.

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with congress deciding to focus on issues that their constituents want them to focus on. It's called democracy

That is a good question, why is OSHA not called something like "The Mens department of labor protection". I think if it were, there would be much more visibility on issues that effect men. Men make up the VAST majority of workers who work in dangerous environments. They also make up more than 90% of the work related deaths. Now, lets do a little bit or reasoning here. What if congress passed legislation that protected women from workplace dangers and completely ignored that 90% of the workplace deaths are men? Well, that is exactly what they are doing by trying to name this law "violence against women act". When men account for a vast majority of violent deaths in relation to crime, war and the workplace. It raises awareness of violence of half the population, and not only that, it raises awareness on the half that actually suffers less from violence.

If men are concerned about this, then they are free to lobby congress to rename OSHA, and to pass laws with the word "men" in their titles.

If men do not do this, then the blame is on them, not congress.

How does it protect men equally when there is no raising of public awareness that men suffer, in large, even more from violence. The focus here is not on the plight of men in respect to violence, but the plight of women. If there is no public awareness, then the public fails to identify a problem. And by naming this "Violence against Women Act" it does nothing in making the public aware that men suffer from violence as well. Which in turn, does not raise concern for men. Which is why we see the trends we see today that I mentioned in my original argument. It is because the public is not aware, thus not concerned.

I quoted directly from VAWA a passage that promotes public awareness of sexual assault that takes place in prison.It applies to both men and women.

I disagree, but that is moot in large. We can argue over the details, but by in large, that is not the point of my argument.

It most certainly was a point that you made, though now that I've addressed it, it suddenly isn't important

No, it was directed at men. I do not understand how you could think that it was directed at everyone. What was the reason for the training? If it was directed at everyone, then why did it only start existing once women entered the workforce? And if it is directed at everyone, why does it only objectify men as the villans and women as the innocent victims. It does nothing to hold women accountable for their sexuality. It does nothing to educate women on how to avoid potentially dangerous situations. And it does nothing to educate men on keeping themselves safe from potential false accusations. If this training is to be helpful to everyone, it needs to apply to everyones concerns, not just the concerns of one sex.

Sexual harrassment seminars do not objectify men as villains and women as innocent victims which is demonstrated by your inability to substantiate this ridiculous claim of yours.

Do you think it does this to the degree that it goes crazy when men are accused of sexual harassment. Has there ever been a female version of the Duke Lacross team case?

No, it goes crazier when a women is accused of a sex crime.

Apparently the victim of these crimes are only women, which is why the law is called "Violence Against Women Act".

Since VAWA specifically states that its provisions are directed at both male and female victims, you are obviously wrong

Otherwise WHY WOULD YOU CALL IT THAT! You still have not given a strait answer other than to deflect the question by saying the laws protect men as well. If that is the case then why was there a need to call it "Violence Against Women Act"?

I have already posted a clear answer to this question, but since you think that a law which specifically states that its provisions are directed at both male and female victims is "apparently" saying that only women are victims I can see how you might have trouble understanding the answer

Of course you haven't. No one has, and that is the problem.

And yet, you haven't posted anything to support your claim

I have

Capster78 · Mar 3, 2013

sangha said:
That is petty{quote]

Would you have an issue with a law if it was titled "Violence against Whites Act", or "Violence against Men's act". I guarantee that if the title had been one of those two, there would definitely be people calling it racist or misogynist weather or not it addressed all races or all sexes. And they would be right, because it would only bring to light the violence committed on those specific groups of people.

Your claims about the intent and motive are unsubstantiated, and violence against men receives a lot of attention in the meda

Click to expand...

Does it? Then where is the funding to support it? What groups can you think of that advocate for men? Oh, I know one.. And guess what happened when they tried to hold a meeting. This happened:

Now if this were to happen outside a conference for womens rights, do you think we would not know about it? Do you think we would allow it to happen? Would it ever happen?

The media plays plenty of attention to issues that affect men more than women.

Click to expand...

Like what?

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with congress deciding to focus on issues that their constituents want them to focus on. It's called democracy

Click to expand...

So lets look at this a bit closer and actually see what your saying here means. It means, that if our society were still rooted in the 1930's and there was a large constituent that believed womens place was at home and not in the workplace, that congress should ignore that women want a place in the workplace? Pass legislation that prevents women from entering the workplace.... If you want to say that congress should listen to lobbies that ask us to stick to the societal norm, then we would stagnate as a country.

If men are concerned about this, then they are free to lobby congress to rename OSHA, and to pass laws with the word "men" in their titles.

Click to expand...

There are men that are. I am one of them. But society lambasts us for speaking up. The example of the protesters standing outside the conference room calling everyone that tried to enter rapists is an example of what I am talking about.

If men do not do this, then the blame is on them, not congress.

Click to expand...

Is it only men's responsibility to stick up for men? It's a societal issue. When women complain that men are running away from responsibility but give them no incentive to be responsible that is when you have the situation we are in. Even worse, when you prevent them from trying to be responsible by blocking them from speaking up about their own rights as fathers and as human beings.

I quoted directly from VAWA a passage that promotes public awareness of sexual assault that takes place in prison.It applies to both men and women.

Click to expand...

Again, then why was it called Violence Against Women Act? You still are dodging the question.

It most certainly was a point that you made, though now that I've addressed it, it suddenly isn't important

Click to expand...

No, it isn't. And I won't be diverted from my main argument by arguing details that frankly, don't really matter in the overall point of my argument.

Sexual harrassment seminars do not objectify men as villains and women as innocent victims which is demonstrated by your inability to substantiate this ridiculous claim of yours.

Click to expand...

Have you ever been to a sexual harassment class? It does not seem like it based on what you say. I would like to know exactly what is so rediculous about my claim. Just calling it rediculous is not enough, you actually have to argue why it is. Then I can address your points.

No, it goes crazier when a women is accused of a sex crime.

Click to expand...

Could you provide an example? I have.

Since VAWA specifically states that its provisions are directed at both male and female victims, you are obviously wrong.

Click to expand...

Your not going to escape my question, I will keep asking it until I get an answer. Then why was it called "Violence against Women Act'?

I have already posted a clear answer to this question, but since you think that a law which specifically states that its provisions are directed at both male and female victims is "apparently" saying that only women are victims I can see how you might have trouble understanding the answer

Click to expand...

I guess by this answer, I could understand why you have such a problem with the question. It's a simple question that you just don't have a good answer for. Your having to jump around like someone is throwing firecrackers at your feet to answer it, well then, maybe you should examine what is being questioned instead of trying to dance around it.

And yet, you haven't posted anything to support your claim

I have

Click to expand...

What information do you dispute? I thought it was all common knowledge but I will humor you if I need to for a little bit at least until I simply get tired of pointing out the obvious.

tererun · Mar 3, 2013

So really the only problem the Op actually has it it was named something catchy? So we should oppose good legislation with lots of support because someone named it something you don't like? It sounds more to me like someone is trying to find some reason to oppose it because they want to pretend there is some agenda behind it despite having never actually read the bill. So I guess the real question here is whether or not an opinion based on the contents of the bill is more powerful than an opinion based on propaganda and a name. I would have to say that since the republicans actually did something bipartisan and committed the sin of agreeing with obama on something that the contents of the bill mean a little more than the lie that it is somehow sexist created by a bunch of people who only read the title of the bill.

You must be really disturbed by megan's law. to think that child molestation of people named megan was so terrible they had to have an entire law and database set up across the country to fight against people who sexually assault people named megan. Or maybe not. maybe they just pick titles that the general public can easily remember and associate with a set of laws.

Gipper · Mar 3, 2013

So they passed the "Pandering to Women" Act. Big whoop.

SSDD.

Capster78 · Mar 3, 2013

tererun said:
So really the only problem the Op actually has it it was named something catchy? So we should oppose good legislation with lots of support because someone named it something you don't like? It sounds more to me like someone is trying to find some reason to oppose it because they want to pretend there is some agenda behind it despite having never actually read the bill. So I guess the real question here is whether or not an opinion based on the contents of the bill is more powerful than an opinion based on propaganda and a name. I would have to say that since the republicans actually did something bipartisan and committed the sin of agreeing with obama on something that the contents of the bill mean a little more than the lie that it is somehow sexist created by a bunch of people who only read the title of the bill.

So what your saying is, that if a bill came out titled "Violence against Whites Act", you would have no problem with it if the content of the bill could be applied to everyone?

You must be really disturbed by megan's law. to think that child molestation of people named megan was so terrible they had to have an entire law and database set up across the country to fight against people who sexually assault people named megan. Or maybe not. maybe they just pick titles that the general public can easily remember and associate with a set of laws.

Well, I think it is a bit disturbing that they choose to focus on a female that was molested. As we know, both males and females are molested at equal rates. However, the law itself highlights child molestation which is all inclusive. When we talk about Megan, we know we are really talking about all children. But when we talk about Womens Violence, we know we are only talking about women because the title generalizes who the legislation is being targeted twords. But a law specifically targeted at all children named Megan, would be as rediculous as a law only targeted at women only.

sangha · Mar 3, 2013

Capster78 said:
Would you have an issue with a law if it was titled "Violence against Whites Act", or "Violence against Men's act". I guarantee that if the title had been one of those two, there would definitely be people calling it racist or misogynist weather or not it addressed all races or all sexes. And they would be right, because it would only bring to light the violence committed on those specific groups of people.

Your need to base your argument on fictions reveals the weakness of your argument

Does it? Then where is the funding to support it? What groups can you think of that advocate for men? Oh, I know one.. And guess what happened when they tried to hold a meeting. This happened:

Now if this were to happen outside a conference for womens rights, do you think we would not know about it? Do you think we would allow it to happen? Would it ever happen?

Since men are more affected by crime and violence than women are, the funding for the police is primarily used to help men. No one makes a fuss about it because everyone is used to resources being expended on men.

Like what?

Like health care for injured soldiers, crime, guns, and a host of other issues

So lets look at this a bit closer and actually see what your saying here means. It means, that if our society were still rooted in the 1930's and there was a large constituent that believed womens place was at home and not in the workplace, that congress should ignore that women want a place in the workplace? Pass legislation that prevents women from entering the workplace.... If you want to say that congress should listen to lobbies that ask us to stick to the societal norm, then we would stagnate as a country.

Your need to resort to fictions is the result of an argument that can't be supported by reality

There are men that are. I am one of them. But society lambasts us for speaking up. The example of the protesters standing outside the conference room calling everyone that tried to enter rapists is an example of what I am talking about.

Awwww. Did society hurt your feeling.

Is it only men's responsibility to stick up for men? It's a societal issue. When women complain that men are running away from responsibility but give them no incentive to be responsible that is when you have the situation we are in. Even worse, when you prevent them from trying to be responsible by blocking them from speaking up about their own rights as fathers and as human beings.

You're getting hysterical. "Women" don't complain about men. Some women do. So do some men.

Your post is beginning to reek of misogyny

Again, then why was it called Violence Against Women Act? You still are dodging the question.

Asked and answered

No, it isn't. And I won't be diverted from my main argument by arguing details that frankly, don't really matter in the overall point of my argument.

You certainly did make a point of it, but I can't blame you from running away from your absurd claim. If only you'd do the same for the rest of your nonsense

Have you ever been to a sexual harassment class? It does not seem like it based on what you say. I would like to know exactly what is so rediculous about my claim. Just calling it rediculous is not enough, you actually have to argue why it is. Then I can address your points.

I see you still can't corroborate your claim about sexual harrassment classes, so instead, you're going to whine and tell lies about me.

Could you provide an example? I have.

Aileen Wuornos

Your not going to escape my question, I will keep asking it until I get an answer. Then why was it called "Violence against Women Act'?

Asked and answered

I guess by this answer, I could understand why you have such a problem with the question. It's a simple question that you just don't have a good answer for. Your having to jump around like someone is throwing firecrackers at your feet to answer it, well then, maybe you should examine what is being questioned instead of trying to dance around it.

Asked and answered

What information do you dispute? I thought it was all common knowledge but I will humor you if I need to for a little bit at least until I simply get tired of pointing out the obvious.

To start, please post something to corroborate your claims that all sexual harrassment classes "objectify men as villains" and that "men have been vilified in the media and by the government as rapists."

sangha · Mar 3, 2013

Capster78 said:
But when we talk about Womens Violence, we know we are only talking about women

Umm, wrong

*We* know that VAWA refers to sexual violence.

I can't say what you know. So far, nothing you've said makes any sense

Thrilla · Mar 3, 2013

I'm not a fan of VAWA for a few reasons.

#1... it's not necessary..... domestic violence is illegal in all 50 states and the DofC.. and these cases are still prosecuted by the States.
Federal interferences are wholly unnecessary.

#2 this act requires the complete stripping of a citizens RTKBA if he/she is convicted of a .... misdemeanor.
this is the only misdemeanor that results , automatically, in a person losing their RTkBA for life. (unless you are able to expunge your record of the conviction)
on a related note... this rights denial relies upon a conviction of a state law... laws that vary from state to state

#3 the new expansion was ill thought out and does not adequately address matters of jurisdiction and rights protections between Indian reservations and the state they are in.
under this bill it is feasible a non-indian can be prosecuted and convicted by an indian authority... and the state authority.
the bill offers no protections for double jeopardy, as double jeopardy laws are not applicable.
simply put, a person can be legally tried and convicted twice for the same crime.

to address these problem i would suggest the following:
requiring the denial of 2nd amendment rights only upon conviction of felony domestic violence ....a misdemeanor should simply not carry a lifetime rights denial.
publishing standards of the DV laws that this denial would apply to , thus mitigating the effects of different law in each states( they do vary widely)....

take the time to reconcile between Indian tribes and states, ensuring all rights of the accused are protected, including double jeopardy, indictment by grand jury, access to counsel, etc.
I understand Congress is trying to get votes from certain demographics, but that is not an excuse to pass ill-thought out law.

ultimately, this act is unnecessary... but it's a vehicle to pander for votes (based on good intentions).... so it will not go anywhere.
I hope they would make some changes to it, but there is no incentive to pass good law, so that will not happen either.

on a personal note, i got caught up in a DV wrap.... for beating my brother-in-law up... whom did not live or work with me.
the Nevada statute is very broad... far too broad.
anyways, it took quite a bit of money , time, and effort, to get my record cleaned up...

Thrilla · Mar 3, 2013

sangha said:
Umm, wrong

*We* know that VAWA refers to sexual violence.

I can't say what you know. So far, nothing you've said makes any sense

no, the violence does not have to be sexual in nature.

in Nevada,per statute.. the violence can be sexual, physical, or psychological.

in practice, no violence has to occur at all to get a DV conviction....i've seen it happen.( dude was convicted of DV for hanging the home phone up while his wife was trying to call her mother)

Capster78 · Mar 3, 2013

sangha said:
Your need to base your argument on fictions reveals the weakness of your argument

Since men are more affected by crime and violence than women are, the funding for the police is primarily used to help men. No one makes a fuss about it because everyone is used to resources being expended on men.

Like health care for injured soldiers, crime, guns, and a host of other issues

Your need to resort to fictions is the result of an argument that can't be supported by reality

Awwww. Did society hurt your feeling.

You're getting hysterical. "Women" don't complain about men. Some women do. So do some men.

Your post is beginning to reek of misogyny

Asked and answered

You certainly did make a point of it, but I can't blame you from running away from your absurd claim. If only you'd do the same for the rest of your nonsense

I see you still can't corroborate your claim about sexual harrassment classes, so instead, you're going to whine and tell lies about me.

Aileen Wuornos

Asked and answered

Asked and answered

To start, please post something to corroborate your claims that all sexual harrassment classes "objectify men as villains" and that "men have been vilified in the media and by the government as rapists."

You whole argument here is falling apart. It would be so easy for me to pick it apart, but I feel doing so is really just a waste of my time and energy. Either way, the statistics don't lie. We can either address the problems now, or we will be dealing with them when we absolutely have to, which will be, I fear, at the worst possible time and it will be to late to reconcile the damage.

Men and boys are increasingly being marginalized in today's society. This is why boys are growing up with ADHD and being drugged up by doctors. Because schools no longer teach to boys. This is why graduation rates from high school for boys lags behind girls. This is why the rate at which boys attend college is slipping in comparission to girls. This is why boys who grow up without fathers, or without functional families are out on the streets in gangs and make up the vast majority of those in prison. This is why the majority of those who have become homeless in the past decade have been men due to the economic downturn that effected vastly more men then women. This is why, 50 years ago men and women's life expectancy was 1 year apart, and now it is 7 years apart. This is why men are committing suicide on a much larger scale than women. Why? Because no one cares about men. We have always been the disposable sex. At least 50 years ago we were socially rewarded for it, but now, it goes ignored. 50 years ago, it was also functional and had a purpose where as now, with technology it is less the case. Men are slowly being alienated by society as a whole. Men need help!!! Men need to speak up and say they need help! But society has to create the environment that makes men feel safe about expressing these things. Instead of an environment that is hostile to their concerns and tells them that your a man, stop complaining! The same compassion that went into the womens rights movement (notice I did not say the feminist movement because I think they are entirely different), needs to go into a Mens Movement to help men move into the new social roles. And women need to be more supportive of men wanting to move into traditionally female roles.

And passing legislation that continually villifies males is not going to get that done. It only pushes males further out to the edges of society where they will continue to suffer.

sangha · Mar 3, 2013

Capster78 said:
You whole argument here is falling apart. It would be so easy for me to pick it apart, but I feel doing so is really just a waste of my time and energy.

I accept your surrender

Either way, the statistics don't lie. We can either address the problems now, or we will be dealing with them when we absolutely have to, which will be, I fear, at the worst possible time and it will be to late to reconcile the damage.

Statistics?

You've posted no statistics

Men and boys are increasingly being marginalized in today's society. This is why boys are growing up with ADHD and being drugged up by doctors. Because schools no longer teach to boys. This is why graduation rates from high school for boys lags behind girls. This is why the rate at which boys attend college is slipping in comparission to girls. This is why boys who grow up without fathers, or without functional families are out on the streets in gangs and make up the vast majority of those in prison. This is why the majority of those who have become homeless in the past decade have been men due to the economic downturn that effected vastly more men then women. This is why, 50 years ago men and women's life expectancy was 1 year apart, and now it is 7 years apart. This is why men are committing suicide on a much larger scale than women. Why? Because no one cares about men. We have always been the disposable sex. At least 50 years ago we were socially rewarded for it, but now, it goes ignored. 50 years ago, it was also functional and had a purpose where as now, with technology it is less the case. Men are slowly being alienated by society as a whole. Men need help!!! Men need to speak up and say they need help! But society has to create the environment that makes men feel safe about expressing these things. Instead of an environment that is hostile to their concerns and tells them that your a man, stop complaining! The same compassion that went into the womens rights movement (notice I did not say the feminist movement because I think they are entirely different), needs to go into a Mens Movement to help men move into the new social roles. And women need to be more supportive of men wanting to move into traditionally female roles.

The misogyny of your argument has nothing to do with VAWA. It's obvious that your arguments have little to do with VAWA, and more with the fear that men will no longer be priviliged.

Deuce · Mar 3, 2013

/r/mensrights is leaking.

(don't go there it's the third most hateful place on the internet)

sangha · Mar 3, 2013

Deuce said:
/r/mensrights is leaking.

(don't go there it's the third most hateful place on the internet)

Was that hate?

because for me, when I read the whining about how society has to make men feel safe to express themselves, the only thing I thought of was how pitiful it sounded

Thrilla · Mar 3, 2013

as an aside.. I wonder if anyone here knows that Domestic violence incidents ( including domestic homicides) have been steadily declining.... since the early 70's.

makes one wonder why Congresscritters feel they need to act like it's national emergency eh?

Capster78 · Mar 3, 2013

sangha said:
I accept your surrender

You would like that would you. Your argument was just not worth the finger pain of punching holes in it as easily as it would be to do. I was not surrendering, I was just concerned for the health of my fingers.

Statistics?

You've posted no statistics

The statistics are widely available, you can look them up yourself. If there is one in particular that you want to confront, post your source here the proves it to be wrong.

The misogyny of your argument has nothing to do with VAWA. It's obvious that your arguments have little to do with VAWA, and more with the fear that men will no longer be priviliged.

The new definition of misogyny is apprently men asking for equal rights from women. Got it! privilege really. You think it is a privilege to be forced to go off and die in war? You think it is a privilege that men are expected to earn more money than a woman to be respected by her? And as a result, has to spend more time away from the family in order to earn that respect? You think its a privilege for men to not have the same options as women do in the workplace after kids are born? You think it is a privilege to be objectified by human doings and not as a human being? Your definition of privilege baffles me. I put forth the idea that neither sex has ever been privileged. Men, even less so, since they are still stuck in their traditional roles that imprisons their creative spirits and their path to fulfillment. Women are starting to get the gist of this as they move into the workplace and are starting to get a taste of what men have know for thousands of years. Working is not a privilege, it is a necessity. If work was a privilege, we would be paying companies for us to work for them.

Capster78 · Mar 3, 2013

sangha said:
Was that hate?

because for me, when I read the whining about how society has to make men feel safe to express themselves, the only thing I thought of was how pitiful it sounded

What if we replace men, with women in the statement you just made. Say it to yourself and tell me you would not be offended by it.

sangha · Mar 3, 2013

Capster78 said:
You would like that would you. Your argument was just not worth the finger pain of punching holes in it as easily as it would be to do. I was not surrendering, I was just concerned for the health of my fingers.

I mus have forgotten how every part of a Real Mans body is so very sensitive

The statistics are widely available, you can look them up yourself. If there is one in particular that you want to confront, post your source here the proves it to be wrong.

So widely available that you can't post one

The new definition of misogyny is apprently men asking for equal rights from women. Got it! privilege really. You think it is a privilege to be forced to go off and die in war? You think it is a privilege that men are expected to earn more money than a woman to be respected by her? And as a result, has to spend more time away from the family in order to earn that respect? You think its a privilege for men to not have the same options as women do in the workplace after kids are born? You think it is a privilege to be objectified by human doings and not as a human being? Your definition of privilege baffles me. I put forth the idea that neither sex has ever been privileged. Men, even less so, since they are still stuck in their traditional roles that imprisons their creative spirits and their path to fulfillment. Women are starting to get the gist of this as they move into the workplace and are starting to get a taste of what men have know for thousands of years. Working is not a privilege, it is a necessity. If work was a privilege, we would be paying companies for us to work for them.

The "poor pitiful men" shtick is pitifully hilarious and demonstrates that your agenda has little to do with anything that's actually in VAWA

House passes Violence Against Women Act after GOP version defeated.

Outer space potato man