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Thread: Florida Welfare Drug Testing Law Gets No Reprieve From Appeals Court

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    Re: Florida Welfare Drug Testing Law Gets No Reprieve From Appeals Court

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Curious as to why drug (ab)use is an approved no-no for gun ownership, and for parole/probation (even for non-drug related crimes) yet just peachy for getting welfare cash. While drug/alcohol addiction/abuse is not a major cause of poverty it certainly hinders one's chances of getting out of it. Attempts to bar any restrictions to getting "automatic" public assistance are not wise public policy. I would insist upon a HS education, the presentation of a personal improvement plan and requiring strict adherence to that plan. I have no real objection to an ocassional helping hand, but would prefer it to be via privately funded charity, but see no reason for all carrot and no stick. We have had a "war on poverty" since the 1960s, and have spent trillions fighting it, yet are stuck with 15% of the US population still so classified. To assert that the current wefare (in all of its many forms) programs are working simply defies common sense.
    But do you have to pee in a cup before purchasing a firearm? Do you have to routinely pee in a cup to keep that firearm?

    Now if I understand the 'welfare' system properly get a drug bust and you lose your housing and other major benefits. If you get busted for drugs no one comes to the house demanding your firearms. What works against the drugs and alcohol hinder a rise out of poverty argument is the rates of abuse seem the same in the working sector. The problem with the generalization is you can test positive for alcohol, just not intoxicated at the time- drugs have zero tolerance.

    My thought for both business and assistance is a cup of pee to sign on, after that only if you can document signs of drug abuse.

    Gipper- you can pee clear and argue all you want- if the specific gravity doesn't come back correct but they will reject you. Wave all the empty water bottles you wish. Now-a-days most tests screen for the cover crap head shops sell, as well as high Niacin. beating the test is difficult, more depends on what test they use more than what you do to dodge it.

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    Re: Florida Welfare Drug Testing Law Gets No Reprieve From Appeals Court

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    But do you have to pee in a cup before purchasing a firearm? Do you have to routinely pee in a cup to keep that firearm?

    Now if I understand the 'welfare' system properly get a drug bust and you lose your housing and other major benefits. If you get busted for drugs no one comes to the house demanding your firearms. What works against the drugs and alcohol hinder a rise out of poverty argument is the rates of abuse seem the same in the working sector. The problem with the generalization is you can test positive for alcohol, just not intoxicated at the time- drugs have zero tolerance.

    My thought for both business and assistance is a cup of pee to sign on, after that only if you can document signs of drug abuse.

    Gipper- you can pee clear and argue all you want- if the specific gravity doesn't come back correct but they will reject you. Wave all the empty water bottles you wish. Now-a-days most tests screen for the cover crap head shops sell, as well as high Niacin. beating the test is difficult, more depends on what test they use more than what you do to dodge it.
    That is an apples to cinder blocks comparison. I was not awarded that firearm by the gov't, I bought it legally using my own funds. Welfare is simply a monitary reward for failure, taken involuntarily from the paychecks of some and given to others on a recurring basis. When I, as a fellow citizen, am expected to pay my own rent, buy my own food and to pay taxes (if I make "too much") then why should another, non-disabled citizen have a "right" to get that given to them? I do not consider it unreasonable for those requesting public assistance, to have hoops to jump through in order to show a genuine attempt to obey the laws and to make an effort to get their act together. Gun rights and welfare rights are not nearly the same; unless you think that ALL should be given welfare or that the poor should be given guns.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Florida Welfare Drug Testing Law Gets No Reprieve From Appeals Court

    Beyond the moral question it carries a cost much higher than the benefit. A perfect example of ideology trumping actual results. The reasoning ranged from some "tough love" for drug abusers to protecting tax payers. Multiple arguments thrown out hoping for something to stick, which typically seems to be the case with blowhard ideologues. All you have to do is visit the about the thread on the Voting Rights case being held by the Supreme Court. It ranges from "it's a useless measure"....to some weird argument which is essentially arguing that there's a need to expand it because discrimination happens outside the areas covered by the law??
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Florida Welfare Drug Testing Law Gets No Reprieve From Appeals Court

    Apparently the Federal courts have decided that welfare also is a constitutional right.

    Everyone knows that welfare fraud and disability fraud overall is entirely legal anyway.

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    Re: Florida Welfare Drug Testing Law Gets No Reprieve From Appeals Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushinator View Post
    Pissing water results in an inclusive test. But there are tons of urine cleansing kits for purchase that remove any traces of the substances being screened without causing any suspicion.
    Have you personally ever done this to pass a drug test?

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    Re: Florida Welfare Drug Testing Law Gets No Reprieve From Appeals Court

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That is an apples to cinder blocks comparison. I was not awarded that firearm by the gov't, I bought it legally using my own funds. Welfare is simply a monitary reward for failure, taken involuntarily from the paychecks of some and given to others on a recurring basis. When I, as a fellow citizen, am expected to pay my own rent, buy my own food and to pay taxes (if I make "too much") then why should another, non-disabled citizen have a "right" to get that given to them? I do not consider it unreasonable for those requesting public assistance, to have hoops to jump through in order to show a genuine attempt to obey the laws and to make an effort to get their act together. Gun rights and welfare rights are not nearly the same; unless you think that ALL should be given welfare or that the poor should be given guns.
    Dude YOU brought the firearm thing into this, don't complain about me using it back.

    NOW your true opinion comes out. You see assistance as rewarding failure. Not a helping hand, even though, heaven forbid you should ever need it yourself.

    Making them jump through hoops, again very telling, how about a realistic program to educate and elevate, but then again if we did that they just might compete with you or yours for those jobs that pay well enough to not need assistance.

    Some may never rise up out of poverty, but do you have any idea what fraction of the programs deal with them? Many detractors lump the free lunch family in with the whole enchilada family.

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    Re: Florida Welfare Drug Testing Law Gets No Reprieve From Appeals Court

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That is an apples to cinder blocks comparison. I was not awarded that firearm by the gov't, I bought it legally using my own funds. Welfare is simply a monitary reward for failure, taken involuntarily from the paychecks of some and given to others on a recurring basis. When I, as a fellow citizen, am expected to pay my own rent, buy my own food and to pay taxes (if I make "too much") then why should another, non-disabled citizen have a "right" to get that given to them? I do not consider it unreasonable for those requesting public assistance, to have hoops to jump through in order to show a genuine attempt to obey the laws and to make an effort to get their act together. Gun rights and welfare rights are not nearly the same; unless you think that ALL should be given welfare or that the poor should be given guns.
    Exactly. On a constitutional basis, there is no "right to welfare."

    As far as I'm concerned, when you forgo the resonsibility of living on your own two feet and voluntarily make yourself a burden to the state and society in general, you should also forgo most of the rights which apply to normal citizens as well. If you want to get technical about it, this is pretty much exactly what enlistment in the military already does, so there is nothing even remotely "unconstitutional" about the idea.

    It would actually seem to be a fair trade, all things considered.

    The goal should be to make the "social safety net" an unpleasant experience which drives people to better themselves and their financial situation by trying to escape its confines, not to make it so comfortable that people simply wallow there as an alternative to gainful employment, draining vital public coffers the whole time.

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Beyond the moral question it carries a cost much higher than the benefit. A perfect example of ideology trumping actual results. The reasoning ranged from some "tough love" for drug abusers to protecting tax payers. Multiple arguments thrown out hoping for something to stick, which typically seems to be the case with blowhard ideologues. All you have to do is visit the about the thread on the Voting Rights case being held by the Supreme Court. It ranges from "it's a useless measure"....to some weird argument which is essentially arguing that there's a need to expand it because discrimination happens outside the areas covered by the law??
    You're right. The status quo seems to be working out quite nicely. There's no reason to change anything....
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 03-01-13 at 12:36 PM.

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    Re: Florida Welfare Drug Testing Law Gets No Reprieve From Appeals Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    You're right. The status quo seems to be working out quite nicely. There's no reason to change anything....
    I'm not sure what is being solved by testing welfare applicants for drug use. I'm not sure how that is any in way a cause for our current problems? Welfare applicants on drugs crashed the economy which has resulted in higher unemployment, lower revenues, and higher costs due to economic stabilizers kicking in? I guess you're Borat picture doesn't seem to answer that question.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Florida Welfare Drug Testing Law Gets No Reprieve From Appeals Court

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I'm not sure what is being solved by testing welfare applicants for drug use. I'm not sure how that is any in way a cause for our current problems? Welfare applicants on drugs crashed the economy which has resulted in higher unemployment, lower revenues, and higher costs due to economic stabilizers kicking in? I guess you're Borat picture doesn't seem to answer that question.
    Welfare costs have done nothing but balloon for the last 50 years and are growing larger every day. Welfare has even become a staple of everyday lifestyle for many minority groups precisely because it initially has a much higher cost to benefit ratio than gainful employment.

    The Unsustainable Growth of Welfare

    Given the already massively unsustainable nature of our national debt, it would seem to be a truism that major reform is necessary. Spending on welfare is one of the areas most in need of such fundamental restructuring.

    Drug testing would make an excellent first step.

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    Re: Florida Welfare Drug Testing Law Gets No Reprieve From Appeals Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Welfare costs have done nothing but balloon for the last 50 years and are growing larger every day. Welfare has even become a staple of everyday lifestyle for many minority groups precisely because it initially has a much higher cost to benefit ratio than gainful employment.

    The Unsustainable Growth of Welfare

    Given the already massively unsustainable nature of our national debt, it would seem to be a truism that major reform is necessary. Spending on welfare is one of the areas most in need of such fundamental restructuring.

    Drug testing would make an excellent first step.
    White people are just as much into welfare income and free welfare supplemental income.

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