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Thread: McCain claims ‘massive cover-up’ on Benghazi

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    Re: McCain claims ‘massive cover-up’ on Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    This is such terrible garbage! That's not even close to what happened. The embassy, without warning, was attacked by 150 militants and they killed 4 Americans. The report (as mentioned several times) went into detail about what could have prevented the killings, but didn't mention anything about Obama failing to jump into his helicopter and unleash his Obamamaster Rifle which shoots lightning and lasers.

    This was an attack on our embassy and a tragedy. The tragedy isn't that the administration tried to blame a youtube video. That's the coverup we're talking about. Nobody (except those who contradict the report and all other evidence) says that the White House chose to let those men die. It's like Watergate, only if the person breaking into the hotel were a 16 year old kid, completely unassociated with the Nixon administration, looking for vicodin.
    Given what we already know you have to know that what you wrote is a lie.

    The battle lasted about 8 hours. The Information Officer was killed in the initial attack. It is unclear when the Ambassador was killed or under what circumstances.
    Doherty and Woods bled out while still fighting seven hours later.

    The president was aware because Panetta told him at the beginning of the battle. Then the president washed his hands and disappeared for eight hours. He abandoned them to die. Then he lied about it for nearly three weeks.

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    Re: McCain claims ‘massive cover-up’ on Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    I'm not going to blame the Democrats of the 1970s for the state of the CIA in 2013.
    I doubt you would blame the Democrats for anything.

    Not only did they wreck the CIA then. They burned assets. It can take 20-30 years to get assets in place. They also passed laws saying we are not allowed to use bad guys. Democrats could mess up a marble.

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    Re: McCain claims ‘massive cover-up’ on Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Hard to say where the president was but most likely he was either at his ranch or golfing.

    I give up, how many times? I don't think the president called in the troops or back up for any of those embassy attacks, if thats what you mean.
    I do not believe we have ever had an eight hour battle before. One American, the Information Officer Smith was killed in the initial attack. Woods and Doherty bled out as they continued to fight more than seven hours later.

    Panetta says he had a fifteen minute conversation with Obama at the beginning of the battle. Then Obama went missing and did not turn up for another eight hours after the Abandoned Four had all been murdered by Obama's new found Islamofascist buddies.
    Why is Obama wrecking America while helping the Islamofascists in the Middle East and Africa?

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    Re: McCain claims ‘massive cover-up’ on Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I'm sorry is Germany inside Libya? I had assumed that a military flight from Germany to Libya would count as a cross border operation, in fact it would count as at least three.
    It would count as a cross border operation if the aircraft had been armed and engaged in battle. It is not just crossing a border it is conducting operations.

    And the State Department's official declassified investigation states multiple times that enough time for an armed military response did not exist, you claim otherwise.
    The State Department did nothing and are covering up. It seems to be working as some people unable to construct a timeline are eager to buy the lie. And yet the timeline exists. The battle lasted nearly eight hours and two Americans bled out while fighting more than seven hours after the attack began. That is plenty of time to respond. The State Department ought to stick to their tea parties and leave the fighting to real Americans.

    I don't know what to tell you, what source or at least what reasoning do you have to say that the State Department is wrong? You haven't provided a source and you haven't explained your reasoning.
    My my. It is not as if there are not excellent timelines already out there. If you wanted to know you would know.

    AND since I've shown that it doesn't take a President to authorize cross border operations
    Cross border operations are military operations, crossing the border of a nation we are not at war with to fight. Flying two hospital aircraft into Libya to pick up the bodies is not a cross border operation. It could be a part of one if combat forces had been moved across the border to fight. I understand that for someone who has not served this is a distinction easily missed. I should have been clearer a few messages back.

    what exactly would you have him do again?
    Ultimately, after developing the situation, direct the State Department to coordinate with the Libyan government to let them know we were coming with combat troops to secure the consulate and the Annex. Direct the SECDEF to determine what combat assets were ready or could be made ready. I would have had him go to the Situation Room to be prepared to give the orders to go once the SECDEF and the CJCS positioned the assets to cross the border. The Secretary of Defense has the authority to put everything in motion. I believe that only the president can direct that the military cross that border to conduct military operations.

    Combat aircraft that were two hours away could have been launched and enroute withing a few minutes, perhaps as few as five to fifteen minutes. The second set of aircraft could have been launched withing 30 minutes to an hour. After that we could have launched the rest of the squadron in about two more hours.

    I do not know what ground forces were available but at least one response team was nearby. Had they reached the Annex four hours after the start of the battle they would have been in position to decisively change the nature of that battle over the last three hours of the fight.

    If you wanted him to personally make that call it would only take LONGER for those flights and other actions to be made, since instead of General you have to go all the way to the President. Is that what you would have wanted?
    This is incorrect. Long ago when I was young and the Earth was still cooling we could get critical information to the president from anywhere in the world in about ten minutes. The White House Situation Room has adequate comms to all of our forces for the president to order and for the military to respond to his orders very quickly.

    The President did not need to order that the forces launch, he need only authorize cross border combat operations before the forces actually crossed the border.

    I'm not supporting anything but facts, if those destroy your arguments well than that's your fault for coming up with bad arguments and being ignorant. :/
    That would be fine if you were arguing from facts. You are not.

    I think the difference between us is that I served as an intelligence officer on an airborne command post. I was also an intelligence officer in a major command headquarters (think CENTCOM, AFRICOM, PACOM...) and know what is possible.

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    Re: McCain claims ‘massive cover-up’ on Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    In how many of those attacks did the president go missing and allow Americans to be abandoned? How many times has an American president done nothing while Americans were being murdered in an eight hour battle?
    We will never know, because they were ignored. A 30-second soundbite and the incidents went into the files of history. Incidents involving US interests only seem to be important when they are named Kenya, Tanzania, and Benghazi. I wonder what the commonality is.

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    Re: McCain claims ‘massive cover-up’ on Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Given what we already know you have to know that what you wrote is a lie.

    The battle lasted about 8 hours. The Information Officer was killed in the initial attack. It is unclear when the Ambassador was killed or under what circumstances.
    Doherty and Woods bled out while still fighting seven hours later.

    The president was aware because Panetta told him at the beginning of the battle. Then the president washed his hands and disappeared for eight hours. He abandoned them to die. Then he lied about it for nearly three weeks.
    So have you not read the official report of what happened, or do you simply not care what the truth is?

    You have 150 militants attacking with RPGs. A simple helicopter will take them out? Come on, man, I'm glad you're not in command, because you don't seem to have any concept of reality. Our embassy was attacked -- that's terrible, but you have to understand that it isn't a military base. We are not prepared to bring massive amounts of firepower anywhere in the world at any second. We were able to get men in there to defend the CIA annex and we had soldiers who went to help Mr. Stevens and the other two men with him.

    Obama needs to answer the questions as to why the security was so lax and how we'll prevent another instance of loss of life like this one. Should he answer as to why he didn't just get in there and kick ass instantly? No, because he shouldn't care what people who are living in a fantasy world think.
    Last edited by Mustachio; 02-20-13 at 05:58 PM.
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    Re: McCain claims ‘massive cover-up’ on Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Oh, sure. 17k remaining personel and a continuted committment to cooperation = "Kicked their ass out!"
    Sure am glad we didn't elect McCain who was fine with military troops being in Iraq for the next 100 years!

    "U.S. Senator John McCain (R-AZ) today issued the following statement regarding President Obama’s decision to withdraw all American troops from Iraq by the end of this year:

    “Today marks a harmful and sad setback for the United States in the world. I respectfully disagree with the President: this decision will be viewed as a strategic victory for our enemies in the Middle East, especially the Iranian regime, which has worked relentlessly to ensure a full withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: McCain claims ‘massive cover-up’ on Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    It would count as a cross border operation if the aircraft had been armed and engaged in battle. It is not just crossing a border it is conducting operations.
    You are in the military, at least you claim to be, you should know that "operation" does not only apply to those things which involve battle. You're redefining your previous argument to pretend it was something other than what is was because a weakness has been exposed.

    The State Department did nothing and are covering up. It seems to be working as some people unable to construct a timeline are eager to buy the lie. And yet the timeline exists. The battle lasted nearly eight hours and two Americans bled out while fighting more than seven hours after the attack began. That is plenty of time to respond. The State Department ought to stick to their tea parties and leave the fighting to real Americans.
    My my. It is not as if there are not excellent timelines already out there. If you wanted to know you would know.[/quote]

    Whats your source? Hell whats your argument? You're just stating it as if its a matter of fact, and you aren't even defining what you exactly mean by response. A UAV was over head, in response, to the attack but I doubt that's what you mean by response. So could you please define your argument a little better? And being an "intelligence officer" you should know that there's more to response than time, there's the degree of the desired response, obviously larger responses take more time, and there's the location of assets and personnel desired for the response to consider as well. Something I think even a 2nd rate intelligence officer should know.

    Cross border operations are military operations, crossing the border of a nation we are not at war with to fight. Flying two hospital aircraft into Libya to pick up the bodies is not a cross border operation. It could be a part of one if combat forces had been moved across the border to fight. I understand that for someone who has not served this is a distinction easily missed. I should have been clearer a few messages back.
    It's a military operation that crosses a border, what more do you want? Also you keep talking as if there is one rule for all cross border operations, in fact ROE changes all over the world, to cross one border is not the same as crossing any other border. The fact that you haven't talked about crossing the Libyan border, and instead just borders in general, makes me think you don't know this fact.

    Ultimately, after developing the situation, direct the State Department to coordinate with the Libyan government to let them know we were coming with combat troops to secure the consulate and the Annex. Direct the SECDEF to determine what combat assets were ready or could be made ready. I would have had him go to the Situation Room to be prepared to give the orders to go once the SECDEF and the CJCS positioned the assets to cross the border. The Secretary of Defense has the authority to put everything in motion. I believe that only the president can direct that the military cross that border to conduct military operations.

    Combat aircraft that were two hours away could have been launched and enroute withing a few minutes, perhaps as few as five to fifteen minutes. The second set of aircraft could have been launched withing 30 minutes to an hour. After that we could have launched the rest of the squadron in about two more hours.

    I do not know what ground forces were available but at least one response team was nearby. Had they reached the Annex four hours after the start of the battle they would have been in position to decisively change the nature of that battle over the last three hours of the fight.

    This is incorrect. Long ago when I was young and the Earth was still cooling we could get critical information to the president from anywhere in the world in about ten minutes. The White House Situation Room has adequate comms to all of our forces for the president to order and for the military to respond to his orders very quickly.

    The President did not need to order that the forces launch, he need only authorize cross border combat operations before the forces actually crossed the border.
    I'm sorry did you not read my quotes from the State Department investigation? Military forces did CROSS THE BORDER and did so WITHOUT Presidential authorization, its a pure and simple fact that cannot be denied. And your suggestion is to have the CJCS move military assets? You clearly, CLEARLY, do not know that the CJCS is NOT a commander, and has NO command authority in the United States military. The highest levels of military command in the world are currently the Unified Combatant Command Commanders, ie the Commanders of AFRICOM, CENTCOM, etc who report directly to the SECDEF NOT to the President. Your suggestion is completely off base and shows your ignorance of how command works at that level.

    And do you have a source about these aircraft? Do you know that they could have been launched in 5 to 15 minutes? What if they were not fully armed or fueled, you don't know that, you're just assuming and making guesses. Again, something a decent intelligence officer would not be doing? And a decent intelligence officer would have a source, not personal anecdotes and opinions.

    That would be fine if you were arguing from facts. You are not.

    I think the difference between us is that I served as an intelligence officer on an airborne command post. I was also an intelligence officer in a major command headquarters (think CENTCOM, AFRICOM, PACOM...) and know what is possible.
    Everything you've posted is an opinion. Facts have sources, facts are undeniable, facts are backed.

    SHOW ME A SOURCE

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    Re: McCain claims ‘massive cover-up’ on Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by DiavoTheMiavo View Post
    We will never know, because they were ignored. A 30-second soundbite and the incidents went into the files of history. Incidents involving US interests only seem to be important when they are named Kenya, Tanzania, and Benghazi. I wonder what the commonality is.
    If there is an example of any of those attacks involving an eight hour battle we can judge what that president did or failed to do.

    I believe the right answer is that none of them involved battles. There is a big difference between a bomb detonating and a battle that lasts for eight hours. This was not an incident. It was a battle.

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    Re: McCain claims ‘massive cover-up’ on Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    You are in the military, at least you claim to be, you should know that "operation" does not only apply to those things which involve battle. You're redefining your previous argument to pretend it was something other than what is was because a weakness has been exposed.
    What are we talking about in this thread? I was discussing moving combat forces to come to the aid of the defenders in Benghazi. What were you talking about?

    Cross border operations in this context is for the purpose of conducting combat operations. I though the context was very clear. It is not possible that you are stupid. One look at you name says that even you do not believe you are stupid.

    I was in the Army. Twenty years. For about five of those years I served in joint assignments at major headquarters.

    Now if you want to talk about cross border operations in the context of training those are well coordinated ahead of time with the host country. They do not include combat on the host nation's soil.

    Or would you like to discuss something other than Benghazi? There are one or two other message threads for those.

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