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Anonymous Threatens Massive WikiLeaks-Style Exposure, Announced On Hacked Gov Site

Re: Constrictive Hacking!

I find it extremely funny that people are bitching about the government not being transparent in every single aspect of it's operation (national security be damned, I guess) but then show slobbering hero worship for a group called "Annonymous".

For me its more of an enemy, of my enemy thing. I'll take all the help I can get even if I dont agree with or even like em.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

lol? Was that serious? How sheltered you must be...

Repeating what I said? Great rebuttle.

I wouldn't want to defend your ridiculous position either.

I am not arguing that they are terrorists. My point in fact is that they are common criminals fighting against the erosion of our freedoms

^^ Corrected for accuracy.

If you are commiting criminal acts, you are a criminal. You don't fight wars from momies basement by stealing credit card numbers.
Being a criminal certainly is a rather objective term. However, every revolutionary in history has been labeled a criminal by their government. You're arguing that they're unjust solely because they are breaking a law, and not even considering what it is they're fighting against.
 
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Re: Constrictive Hacking!

Repeating what I said? Great rebuttle.

I wouldn't want to defend your ridiculous position either.



^^ Corrected for accuracy.


Being a criminal certainly is a rather objective term. However, every revolutionary in history has been labeled a criminal by their government. You're arguing that they're unjust solely because they are breaking a law, and not even considering what it is they're fighting against.

Fighting for their freedom to pirate other people's hard work and their freedom to cheat at video games does not impress me. Stealing credit card numbers and posting flashing gifs on a message board for epileptics not noble strategies.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

Fighting for their freedom to pirate other people's hard work and their freedom to cheat at video games does not impress me. Stealing credit card numbers and posting flashing gifs on a message board for epileptics not noble strategies.
The JSTOR documents that were downloaded by Swartz were publically funded research papers that were being sold at outrageously high prices. Important research like that, especially when tax payer funded, needs to be in the public domain. Our government is insanely interested in squashing the flow of information and standing up for corporations. I never thought someone as liberal as you would stand up for the corporations, especially in order to deter the growth of human knowledge.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

That's not at all what it's saying. I don't know anybody who says an acceptable means of dealing with one thing is an acceptable means of dealing with EVERYTHING. It's acceptable for someone to kill someone in self defense, it's not acceptable to kill someone because they don't like them. It's acceptable for the US to step in to prevent mass genocide, it's not acceptable for them to invade a country for oil.
Your examples are vastly different aims though. I'm talking about the difference between blackmailing politicians to make they vote in favour of the bill reducing the criminal penalty for leaking information and blackmailing politicians to vote against the same bill.

If an organisation was identified doing the latter, I am certain the people currently celebrating Anonymous' actions would be (rightly) condemning that organisation as anti-democratic criminals who should be locked up. If they wouldn't, they're instead saying that in general terms it's just fine for criminals to circumvent the political process - blackmail, bribes and intimidation all become fair game. Either way, they're morally wrong.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

Your examples are vastly different aims though. I'm talking about the difference between blackmailing politicians to make they vote in favour of the bill reducing the criminal penalty for leaking information and blackmailing politicians to vote against the same bill.

If an organisation was identified doing the latter, I am certain the people currently celebrating Anonymous' actions would be (rightly) condemning that organisation as anti-democratic criminals who should be locked up. If they wouldn't, they're instead saying that in general terms it's just fine for criminals to circumvent the political process - blackmail, bribes and intimidation all become fair game. Either way, they're morally wrong.
Just as the patriots who threw the tea overboard in the Boston tea party were labeled as criminals and treasonous, so are they. I can't recall any revolution in history that didn't involve going against the current government's will.

Your argument that "if it's illegal, it's immoral" is insanely short-sighted.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

Just as the patriots who threw the tea overboard in the Boston tea party were labeled as criminals and treasonous, so are they. I can't recall any revolution in history that didn't involve going against the current government's will.
This isn't a revolution, it's a minor political disagreement.

Your argument that "if it's illegal, it's immoral" is insanely short-sighted.
That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that blackmailing politicians to corrupt the democratic process is immoral (regardless of whether it is illegal or not). I'm challenging the people who are defending the practice, especially if they're hypocritically defending it only when if favours their personal opinion or is to their benefit. This doesn't only apply to supporters of Anonymous.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

And thats what every Al-Quada and suicide bomber has ever said.

Possibly. It's also possible that's what the Patriots said during the Revolutionary War, or what Stauffenberg said before trying to kill Hitler, or what the Hungarians said before trying to topple the Soviet control in their country.

That's the whole dispute over this. The subjectivity of the word 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter'. I'm not taking sides, just pointing out how different people are treating this.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

You wouldn't have to ask if you had the read the OP link and read the thread before posting. You don't seem to know or understand very much about who or what you're trying to defend.

Oh, I read it. I didn't come to the same conclusion however and was asking more about the usage of the term blackmail, but that would lead to more fruitless semantics.

I'd also ask you to go to where I began in this thread, read forward, and explain to me where you've drawn this reaching conclusion. At this juncture however, the point would be, well,...... moot.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

And how much change will result from stealing credit card numbers, interfering with a government serving it's people, and posting flashing gifs on a message board for epileptics?

I believe the purpose is to agitate and embarrass more than anything.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

My point in fact is that they are common criminals working for their own profit.

What profit are they working towards? There's no money in what they are doing (except maybe in media interviews). There is practically no individual fame since they are, well, anonymous. However, they are taking a huge risk on their careers and future by doing what they are doing.

Sure, they're criminals in the eyes of the law. But are they working for some sort of profit? If they are, they need to find less risky work.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

Civilians in that they are not governments nor soldiers. A bank or hospital is not a military target, it is a civilian target.

If I was raging war on the US I would focus on civilian targets like those. It's really the only way to fight them. Just saying..
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

I'm always in favor of civil disobedience when the government is a known law breaker.

I just wish Anonymous would go ahead and spill the beans, instead of all this blackmail and extortion.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

And thats what every Al-Quada and suicide bomber has ever said.

When you are fighting a war you don't exactly look for the approval of those you are waging war against. You find your cause just and that is really all that matters.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

In part, but that is far from all. In modern warfare the goals, tactics and strategies go far beyond conquering territory.

I realize that, thanks.

They could have gotten us to leave simply by not fighting.

How would that work exactly? Why would that be their rational response?
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

This isn't a revolution, it's a minor political disagreement.

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that blackmailing politicians to corrupt the democratic process is immoral (regardless of whether it is illegal or not). I'm challenging the people who are defending the practice, especially if they're hypocritically defending it only when if favours their personal opinion or is to their benefit. This doesn't only apply to supporters of Anonymous.

Maybe it's a minor disagreement to you. I see the government fundamentally challenging our liberty in far too many instances to count.

Were the Boston tea partiers not blackmailing the British government by essentially saying "If you don't change what you're doing, we're going to keep destroying your property and rebel."? Sounds like blackmail to me.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

Maybe it's a minor disagreement to you. I see the government fundamentally challenging our liberty in far too many instances to count.

Were the Boston tea partiers not blackmailing the British government by essentially saying "If you don't change what you're doing, we're going to keep destroying your property and rebel."? Sounds like blackmail to me.

You make a very good point regarding blackmail.

In this case however, at least as I understand it, Anonymous is in possession of emails and such that supposedly detail government crimes against the rule of law or individual citizens. Assuming that is correct, it seems to me that Anonymous has some sort of moral obligation to expose those crimes, rather than just offer threats to do so.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

You make a very good point regarding blackmail.

In this case however, at least as I understand it, Anonymous is in possession of emails and such that supposedly detail government crimes against the rule of law or individual citizens. Assuming that is correct, it seems to me that Anonymous has some sort of moral obligation to expose those crimes, rather than just offer threats to do so.

I don't think at the moment they are interested in showing the crimes, but getting even with the government. They even say as much in the video by saying they want to put the government in the same situation Swartz found himself in.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

Maybe it's a minor disagreement to you. I see the government fundamentally challenging our liberty in far too many instances to count.
You have the option to fight that democratically. You just have to remember that it isn't just about what you think - you need to convince the majority (or at least a significant minority). Anonymous has had to resort to such extreme tactics because, in their fundamental politics, they represent an insignificant minority. The system isn't perfect but that's no excuse to actively make it worse.

Were the Boston tea partiers not blackmailing the British government by essentially saying "If you don't change what you're doing, we're going to keep destroying your property and rebel."? Sounds like blackmail to me.
They were protesting the British Monarchy, an effective dictatorship in America at the time and the system they were opposing. It isn't in any way comparable to anything in the US today.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

You have the option to fight that democratically. You just have to remember that it isn't just about what you think - you need to convince the majority (or at least a significant minority). Anonymous has had to resort to such extreme tactics because, in their fundamental politics, they represent an insignificant minority. The system isn't perfect but that's no excuse to actively make it worse.

They were protesting the British Monarchy, an effective dictatorship in America at the time and the system they were opposing. It isn't in any way comparable to anything in the US today.

In what world do our laws get voted on by a democratic process of the people? Our laws are created by a group of people who campaign on something completely different from their actions. They bicker back and forth, add in pork, and butcher any bit of good the original law might have had. They overwhelmingly support anti-constitutional bills like the NDAA and patriot act, and there's no one to stand up to them. Yeah, you vote once every 4 years, but they all meet the same status quo.

You're very comfortable doing whatever the government tells you, and anything they declare is both law and morally just. I disagree.
 
Re: Constrictive Hacking!

In what world do our laws get voted on by a democratic process of the people? Our laws are created by a group of people who campaign on something completely different from their actions. They bicker back and forth, add in pork, and butcher any bit of good the original law might have had. They overwhelmingly support anti-constitutional bills like the NDAA and patriot act, and there's no one to stand up to them. Yeah, you vote once every 4 years, but they all meet the same status quo.
I agree the political system is far from perfect. My solution is to work at improving it. Your solution seems to be supporting people who are actively making it worse, adding even more corruption and anti-democratic processes. You are, by association, celebrating all of the flaws you're complaining about. Of course next time, they might not be promoting something you agree with and you won't have a leg to stand on.

My point is simple. You're free to argue that the (apparent) principals Anonymous is pushing the right policies that government should enact but that shouldn't prevent you from clearly stating that blackmail and cyber-crime are inappropriate methods to achieve any political aims.

Alternatively, you could state that you think blackmail and cyber-crime are appropriate methods to achieve political aims and campaign to making them legal (or threaten enough politicians to make it happen).
 
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