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Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

madman said:
They are very similar to the conservative Taliban.
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No they really aren't and such only belittles things like little girls being attacked for going to school and using physical force to curtail such things as beard shaving and listening to the radio.

Here, while these people are clearly assholes and scumbags, they are assholes and scumbags going through the political process. And what they are endorsing doesn't really approach the level of executing atheists
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
No they really aren't and such only belittles things like little girls being attacked for going to school and using physical force to curtail such things as beard shaving and listening to the radio.

Here, while these people are clearly assholes and scumbags, they are assholes and scumbags going through the political process. And what they are endorsing doesn't really approach the level of executing atheists
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When it comes to converting and forcing "god" on to non believers, the are very, very alike.
 
Yes, if you want to ignore all the differences, and focus on their religious zealotry and need to push it on other people, then they are the same. But then so is a Mormon missionary and the guy throwing acid in the school girls face ...

Which highlights the rather absurd and useless nature of the comparison
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Yes, if you want to ignore all the differences, and focus on their religious zealotry and need to push it on other people, then they are the same. But then so is a Mormon missionary and the guy throwing acid in the school girls face ...

Which highlights the rather absurd and useless nature of the comparison
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There's nothing absurd about it. They are quite similar. Especially regarding religion.
 
madman said:
There's nothing absurd about it. They are quite similar. Especially regarding religion.
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If one wants to minimize throwing acid in a 13 year old girls face they are, indeed, similar. Though, such doesn't change the absurd nature of the whole thing
 
0bserver92 said:
Well it is the literal translation. Allah Ackbar! means god is great.
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It's amazing how many people don't recognize the difference between the small-g god, which is a generic term referring to all deities, and the capital-g God, which is a proper name referring only to the specific deity of Christianity. Some people think you can use them interchangably. They're wrong.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Does your (lack of) religion prohibit you from saying "So help me God"? If not than this "oath" clearly does not establish a religion nor prohibit the free exercise thereof.
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Better question is, does this violate the first amendment?

We have a right to our own values and beliefs, and to free speech. Why should the government force us to say something in public, so we get a piece of paper that determines our future?

It doesn't sound like the bill makes a distinction between private and public schools either. The government should stay out of private schools in this matter.

Neo conservativism at its finest.
 
Excon said:
If any one of them is a god to you, then there is no reason as to why you can not say it, as it would be inclusive to you, as opposed to those who do not believe in a G_d, or gods. Let alone the statement of Oath to begin with.
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He still has his first amendment rights.
 
Excon said:
:doh
Accept when it is. The word (with a capital G) Gods is often made plural.
And any pagen god would be included in the word God. As it is inclusive. Not exclusive.




Well the oath is not religious.
But an oath to the Constitution.
So your premise is false.
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I believe in God and I wouldn't feel comfortable making such a pledge. To me it's a pledge to God to do something in his name. I am not against the constitution, but I shouldn't be required to makes pledge in God's name because of the government.

If I move out of the country and live under a different constitution, that doesn't involve my faith. Nor should be an issue to me or provoke questioning if I am breaking a promise or pledge to God.
 
SheWolf said:
I believe in God and I wouldn't feel comfortable making such a pledge. To me it's a pledge to God to do something in his name. I am not against the constitution, but I shouldn't be required to makes pledge in God's name because of the government.

If I move out of the country and live under a different constitution, that doesn't involve my faith. Nor should be an issue to me or provoke questioning if I am breaking a promise or pledge to God.
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What is G_d's name here?
 
Excon said:
What is G_d's name here?
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It doesn't matter if you argue the exact God is vague. When religious people speak of God, faith in God, worshipping God, etc. they don't speak vaguely, and they simply use the name God. They know what they mean.

If you think the government should have the authority to force us to make pledges to God in public, that's one thing. But to tell me to just use the name of God generically in public, is a matter I would consider a direct assault on my rights and religion.

I won't make a pledge in the name of a false God a different God. And I decide when I make a pledge or promise in God's name, not the government
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Does your (lack of) religion prohibit you from saying "So help me God"? If not than this "oath" clearly does not establish a religion nor prohibit the free exercise thereof.
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In all other cases where "So help me God" comes at the end of an oath, it is optional. Precedence runs against this idea, also I'd argue this falls under the same ruling about the Pledge of Allegiance that doesn't make it mandatory in schools.
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists To Graduate High School



Awful damn hard to be a pagan and a conservative in this country when our so-called "conservative party" apparently hates you.
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So, what is the problem with atheists saying the oath? Will their tongues burst into fire?

Seriously, it's just a meaningless bit of boilerplate to an atheist. So, what's the problem?

This bridling over such things really makes it look like some atheists are into magical thinking. It looks more and more like it's their religion we are talking about.
 
LowDown said:
So, what is the problem with atheists saying the oath? Will their tongues burst into fire?

Seriously, it's just a meaningless bit of boilerplate to an atheist. So, what's the problem?

This bridling over such things really makes it look like some atheists are into magical thinking. It looks more and more like it's their religion we are talking about.
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by that notion, you should be comfortable with an oath of fealty to Stalin.
 
SheWolf said:
It doesn't matter if you argue the exact God is vague. When religious people speak of God, faith in God, worshipping God, etc. they don't speak vaguely, and they simply use the name God. They know what they mean.

If you think the government should have the authority to force us to make pledges to God in public, that's one thing. But to tell me to just use the name of God generically in public, is a matter I would consider a direct assault on my rights and religion.

I won't make a pledge in the name of a false God a different God. And I decide when I make a pledge or promise in God's name, not the government
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Well... Yes it does matter, as it is all inclusive to any belief in a higher power.
And it isn't a pledge to G_d, or a god either, but to "support and defend the Constitution".
 
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Wiseone said:
In all other cases where "So help me God" comes at the end of an oath, it is optional. Precedence runs against this idea, also I'd argue this falls under the same ruling about the Pledge of Allegiance that doesn't make it mandatory in schools.
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I agree. Usually you have the option to either swear (an oath) or affirm (an affirmation) and the "So help be God" is optional as well, as for the Presidential oath/affirmation of office required by the Constitution.
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists To Graduate High School



Awful damn hard to be a pagan and a conservative in this country when our so-called "conservative party" apparently hates you.
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I have not read the entire thread. I do live in Arizona and I love living here. That said, Arizona does seem to be the place where dumbass comes to die. Arizona ranks 48th in education. We have more than a few politicos who are educated way beyond their intelligence. The bill violates the 1st Amendment. Unfortunately, more than a few Arizona legislators have never read the US Constitution.

The bill is what is termed as a "Wet Fart Bill". The outcome won't be what it felt like in the beginning.
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists To Graduate High School



Awful damn hard to be a pagan and a conservative in this country when our so-called "conservative party" apparently hates you.
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Well, on the upside, you can snicker at all the Christians who decorate their traditional winter solstice tree with shiny things, light candles, and hang greenery around the house, and then in the Spring, celebrate with fertility symbols, rabbit and egg, in the pagan spring holiday they now call Easter. I won't even bring up Halloween--America's second most popular pagan holiday.

If only pagans could charge royalties for all the traditions, symbols, and wedding bands borrowed (stolen) by Christianity.
 
LowDown said:
So, what is the problem with atheists saying the oath? Will their tongues burst into fire?
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Some people have moral objections to lying even without some god sitting on their shoulder with a pitchfork.
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
Some people have moral objections to lying even without some god sitting on their shoulder with a pitchfork.
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No, it's the Devil who has the pitchfork.

Apparently, a decent regard for comity is not part of the moral calculus when it comes to these little verbal formulations.
 
LowDown said:
No, it's the Devil who has the pitchfork.

Apparently, a decent regard for comity is not part of the moral calculus when it comes to these little verbal formulations.
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huh????

Also, from the nature of the majority of your posts here, despite what you say, we both know you would react differently than you claim
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
huh????

Also, from the nature of the majority of your posts here, despite what you say, we both know you would react differently than you claim
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You mean about crossing my fingers? Ok, I'd cross my fingers, and I'd be in a snit about it.
 
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