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Thread: Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

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    Re: Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    No, but my deities have names and they are not properly addressed by "God".

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    Re: Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    "God" is a capitalized proper noun and any person of Judeochristian faith will be happy to tell you refers only to their god. I am as excluded as any atheist.
    You live in WY. You're already excluded from anything AZ does.

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    Re: Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

    We have a winner!
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    Whether or not it was religious, I would refuse to say it because I am graduating from high school. I am not taking a public oath for office.
    An oath should never be required to complete graduation. We don't even require students to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

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    Re: Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    "So help me god" is generic, not Judeochristian. "God" means whatever you want it to mean, any kind of higher power at all, not even necessarily a deity. We have a devout Pagan in my platoon, when he took the oath he said "so help me god", he took it to mean one of his gods. It's not a big deal.

    Anyway, with all of these oaths you have the option to not say "swear" or "so help me god", so no more QQ plz.
    No, if they had phrased it "so help me god", you'd be right. However, they specifically phrased it "so help me God", which is a proper name referring to a specific deity. Just because the Christians were so unoriginal to use the generic word "god" to refer to their deity doesn't change the rules of language.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, if they had phrased it "so help me god", you'd be right. However, they specifically phrased it "so help me God", which is a proper name referring to a specific deity. Just because the Christians were so unoriginal to use the generic word "god" to refer to their deity doesn't change the rules of language.
    The entire oath is what you should be objecting to. It's graduation, not a political office or official station.

    Even if we agreed that it's remotely appropriate to state an oath for graduation, the word "swear" can be exchanged for a synonym, and the line "so help me God" can be left out entirely.

    There's nothing to see here besides OP getting his panties in a bunch over nothing.

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    Re: Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The entire oath is what you should be objecting to. It's graduation, not a political office or official station.

    Even if we agreed that it's remotely appropriate to state an oath for graduation, the word "swear" can be exchanged for a synonym, and the line "so help me God" can be left out entirely.

    There's nothing to see here besides OP getting his panties in a bunch over nothing.
    As religious tyranny goes this is pretty much as small potatoes as it gets. That being said, it's extremely easy to be dismissive of somebody else's inconvenience (mild as this example may be), when that inconvenience is set up to your advantage. It's why the guy can be utterly baffled as to why the woman would get so ticked off over the toilet seat being left up: it's no big deal because it's always been fine with him. If "God" were replaced with "Allah," would you take more notice?

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    Re: Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    As religious tyranny goes this is pretty much as small potatoes as it gets. That being said, it's extremely easy to be dismissive of somebody else's inconvenience (mild as this example may be), when that inconvenience is set up to your advantage. It's why the guy can be utterly baffled as to why the woman would get so ticked off over the toilet seat being left up: it's no big deal because it's always been fine with him. If "God" were replaced with "Allah," would you take more notice?
    I object to the entire oath.

    That you find it acceptable to require a religiously neutral oath to graduate is disgusting. There should be no oath at all.

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    Re: Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I object to the entire oath.

    That you find it acceptable to require a religiously neutral oath to graduate is disgusting. There should be no oath at all.
    They're both problems. There shouldn't be an oath, and there shouldn't be "God" in the oath besides. The difference lies in which of the two we see as the greater offense, and that you see the mention of God as the lesser one highlights what I was saying. You're Christian, so the mention of God is positive at best and neutral at worst, an attitude that is easy to take when your demographic is in the cultural majority.

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    Re: Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    They're both problems. There shouldn't be an oath, and there shouldn't be "God" in the oath besides. The difference lies in which of the two we see as the greater offense, and that you see the mention of God as the lesser one highlights what I was saying. You're Christian, so the mention of God is positive at best and neutral at worst, an attitude that is easy to take when your demographic is in the cultural majority.
    There are 3 offences, not 2:
    1. An oath to graduate school should not exist at all.
    2. That aside, the oath discriminates against Christians by including "swear".
    3. The oath also discriminates against non-Christians by requiring "so help me God".

    Every other place we see this oath, be it military enlistment or elected to public office, you can elect to conclude your oath with "duties", leaving out "so help me God" entirely. You can replace "swear" with a synonym. Every time these options are not allowed, the oath is struck down. If these options are allowed, then no one will be discriminated against, and we are left with #1: an oath to graduate from school should not exist.

    That is how I triashed the offences.
    Last edited by Jerry; 02-03-13 at 09:39 PM.

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    Re: Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Not Allow Atheists to Graduate

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The entire oath is what you should be objecting to. It's graduation, not a political office or official station.

    Even if we agreed that it's remotely appropriate to state an oath for graduation, the word "swear" can be exchanged for a synonym, and the line "so help me God" can be left out entirely.

    There's nothing to see here besides OP getting his panties in a bunch over nothing.
    Oh, I do object to the whole thing, there's no point to forcing anyone to stand up and pledge an oath in order to get something, including the Pledge of Allegiance. I was simply responding to your incorrect assessment of the word, I was not supporting the oath in any way, shape or form.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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