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New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last

Re: We're Number......LAST

Sucre said:
My assertion is that you have cliché and meaningless views about Europeans.:cool:

I further explained to you that the issue of health care is not about responsibility. It is about getting the best possible deal: the highest value of health care at the cheapest price.
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What does either of those points have to do with ANYTHING I've posted, much less the post you quoted??? And no, those aren't the only elements of the equation. After all, by stepping across the border into Canada and committing a felony crime, I could get the best possible deal on my healthcare. And at the cheapest price - free. Of course I'd be in a Canadian prison, but hey, I'd get the best healthcare and at the best price. All I have to sacrifice is my freedom.


Sucre said:
Come on ... All you need to do is not to enlist anywhere... As for these busybodies, I wish they had visited these old people regularly found dead in their appartments ...

Where I agree is that as soon as you get into a social activity - be it a job or a club or this forum - you need to play by the rules.
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Huh? Are you reading for comprehension? Wasn't talking about "enlisting anywhere". There are people who try to live in caves and in our national forests. They eventually get caught and barred from the location. There are already people who try to get away from the maddening herd, every time the herd comes and gets them.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

sangha said:
No, I didn't



OK, now I understand that your %'s were a % of GDP. Now can you tell me where you got "Medicare/Medicaid/Veterans together" acct for 9% of GDP. Id true, that means that more than 42% of the Fed budget is spent on those three pgms

According to this chart, Fed spending on health care doesn't come close to 42% of the Fed budget
SRfedspendingnumbers2012p22chart3.ashx


Federal Spending by the Numbers - 2012
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Hard to get exact figures from that chart, but it looks about right.

It looks like my figures were a little off. That's easy to do when the numbers keep fluctuating, but anyway, let's re do the math with more up to date data:

First:

Combined outlays for Medicare and Medicaid currently equal about 5.5 percent of GDP. "Under current law, spending for those two programs is expected to keep growing faster than the economy, reaching 6.6 percent of GDP by 2020 and potentially reaching 10 percent by 2035," says the CBO.

Read more: Medicare/Medicaid spending a national 'threat,' says CBO - FierceHealthcare Medicare/Medicaid spending a national 'threat,' says CBO - FierceHealthcare
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So, it's a little more than 5.5% now, as the data given is from 2010.

Amount wast.. I mean spent by the federal government: 22.77%

Total amount of medical care spending (as of a couple of years ago) 17.4 percent.

So, take the 22.77%, subtract out the 5.5% that is Medicare/Medicaid, and you get 17.27%.

Compare that with medical care expenditures, of 17.4%, and you can see that the federal government is still spending less on everything from Social Security to the war in Afganistan than the country spends (private and public spending) on health care.

Just not quite as much more as I thought.

I didn't find figures for Veteran's health care. That would no doubt add another percent or two to the government's cost of medical care.

those figures are a couple of years old. The cost of medical care keeps going up and up.

So, is cost containment an issue, or not?
 
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Dittohead not! said:
Compare that with medical care expenditures, of 17.4%, and you can see that the federal government is still spending less on everything from Social Security to the war in Afganistan than the country spends (private and public spending) on health care.
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OK, now I'm following you, but I dont see the relevance of comparing the "% of GDP that comes from Fed spending" vs "health care spending as a % of GDP".


Just not quite as much more as I thought.

I didn't find figures for Veteran's health care. That would no doubt add another percent or two to the government's cost of medical care.

those figures are a couple of years old. The cost of medical care keeps going up and up.

So, is cost containment an issue, or not?
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Yes, cost containment is an issue. Everyone agrees on this. Just citing the % of GDP spent on health care is sufficient to demonstrate that (hence my confusion over your mention it in comparison to fed spending as % GDP)

Was that your point?
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

sangha said:
OK, now I'm following you, but I dont see the relevance of comparing the "% of GDP that comes from Fed spending" vs "health care spending as a % of GDP".




Yes, cost containment is an issue. Everyone agrees on this. Just citing the % of GDP spent on health care is sufficient to demonstrate that (hence my confusion over your mention it in comparison to fed spending as % GDP)

Was that your point?
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I was responding to Winston's post:

I really don't think cost cutting measures are the biggest concerns. I think questions of morbidity are a bigger concern as far as health issues are concerned in regards to the issues you are talking about
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Cost cutting measures are the biggest concerns. We can't afford the health care system we have. It is bankrupting us faster than even the growth of the federal government.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Dittohead not! said:
I was responding to Winston's post:



Cost cutting measures are the biggest concerns. We can't afford the health care system we have. It is bankrupting us faster than even the growth of the federal government.
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While I tend to agree with you, and not Winston (on this issue), I dont think the stats you posted prove your point, and I do think that winston does have a point because reducing morbidity *is* a cost-cutting effort

Saying that the way to cut costs is to cut spending on health care is a short-sighted view (not saying that this is your view. Just sayin')
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

presluc said:
Ah, my friend it is always good to hear from you.
Keyword here I think is profits, after all America is a Capitalist country which runs on money , profits.

However my question is as I have said on another thread without income to the government money gets lower profits will shrink because a majority of profits depend on Tax Revenue.

The government must get Tax revenue from working people making a high enough wage to pay taxes.
The American government can not keep borrowing money and printing money, in the long run this will not furnish profits but bankruptcy.:peace
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I'm not sure I understand your meaning clearly my friend, would you mind rephrasing it for me?:peace
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Dittohead not! said:
Cost cutting measures are the biggest concerns. We can't afford the health care system we have. It is bankrupting us faster than even the growth of the federal government.
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I was talking in regards to actual health care not all the red tape we have to go through and profiteers on the business side. I think every one with an acceptable rate of morbidity should have healthcare be it a transplant or just a shot. I do not think executives at health insurance companies deserve exorbitant paychecks for increasing stock price.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

clownboy said:
What does either of those points have to do with ANYTHING I've posted, much less the post you quoted??? And no, those aren't the only elements of the equation. After all, by stepping across the border into Canada and committing a felony crime, I could get the best possible deal on my healthcare. And at the cheapest price - free. Of course I'd be in a Canadian prison, but hey, I'd get the best healthcare and at the best price. All I have to sacrifice is my freedom.
.
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I don't think going to prison just to get health care is getting a good deal :rofl

Thank you for providing a good example why it necessary to fix health care at home in order not to get into such a situation ...
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

winston53660 said:
I was talking in regards to actual health care not all the red tape we have to go through and profiteers on the business side. I think every one with an acceptable rate of morbidity should have healthcare be it a transplant or just a shot. I do not think executives at health insurance companies deserve exorbitant paychecks for increasing stock price.
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If more of our health care dollar went into actual health care, that would lower costs, no doubt.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

WhyteRash said:
no even primitive cultures can count, but they couldnt possibly have the means or interest in doing an accurate job of it. so any information they'd bring would be questionable. instead i simply believe that many "modern" countries are just not forthcoming with any damaging data in order to be viewed better on the "world stage", or perhaps some just don't tally these things and use estimates based on samplings to the good.. IMO, there just seems to be alot of finger pointing at the USofA, using snippits of data that are very likely not "apples to apples".
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Unbelievably naive -- a demonstration of how off-course the unwary can be blown in an over-reliance on mindless nationalism. Nations do not invest in the collection and publication of detailed data sets for the purpose of improving appearances on some world stage or other. They do so in order that policy-makers, scholars, and analysts can have access to the best possible data as an anti-GIGO essential and input to processes of identifying and analyzing successes and failures and as guides to choices among available policy alternatives. The data collection systems in all developed countries are on a par with each other. There are international standards. There is a shared literature among them. All participate in international conferences and seminars on statistical methods, approaches, and problems. There seem to be rather a lot of people who are so entirely out of this loop as to not even know that it exists.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Sucre said:
I don't think going to prison just to get health care is getting a good deal :rofl
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Why not, the only thing you have to give up is your freedom, and Canadians are used to that, right? :mrgreen:

The point is, there are more costs than the economic. Some folks are willing to pay them, some aren't. A lot of people here in the US aren't. That's why UHC will be a long time coming here.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Catawba said:
I'm not sure I understand your meaning clearly my friend, would you mind rephrasing it for me?:peace
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Tax revenue pays for bailouts, research money, tax cuts and tax rebates.

Lower tax revenue means corporations will have to pay their own way , maybe not now but if the economic system remains the same they will and that will cut into profits.

Tax Revenue is made by working people with a with High enough wage to fit IRS. standards of paying income tax which is TAX REVENUE:peace
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

presluc said:
Tax revenue pays for bailouts, research money, tax cuts and tax rebates.

Lower tax revenue means corporations will have to pay their own way , maybe not now but if the economic system remains the same they will and that will cut into profits.

Tax Revenue is made by working people with a with High enough wage to fit IRS. standards of paying income tax which is TAX REVENUE:peace
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If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that more jobs that pay a living wage will help? Did I get that right?

I agree, but I think we need to go further to address health care costs.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Catawba said:
If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that more jobs that pay a living wage will help? Did I get that right?

I agree, but I think we need to go further to address health care costs.
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Health care "cost" can not be addressed with America dealing with a financial burden from healthy people wanting to work.
What is America to do print more money, maybe borrow more money?:peace
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

presluc said:
Health care "cost" can not be addressed with America dealing with a financial burden from healthy people wanting to work.
What is America to do print more money, maybe borrow more money?:peace
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I agree my friend that jobs are the most important issue. However even at full employment, health care cost have become too unaffordable in the US. The only viable proposal I have seen that doesn't just pass the cost on to those least able to afford it, is to upgrade to UHC as every other industrialized country in the world has had to do to lower costs. :peace
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Catawba said:
I agree my friend that jobs are the most important issue. However even at full employment, health care cost have become too unaffordable in the US. The only viable proposal I have seen that doesn't just pass the cost on to those least able to afford it, is to upgrade to UHC as every other industrialized country in the world has had to do to lower costs. :peace
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I agree that health care should be upgraded as every other industrialized country in the world.

However the way D.C. is today even to purpose such an upgrade , you would run into a mountain of red tape and after that a brick wall to break though.

Then it might if you're lucky hit the floor of the Senate for discussion.:peace
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

presluc said:
Health care "cost" can not be addressed with America dealing with a financial burden from healthy people wanting to work.
What is America to do print more money, maybe borrow more money?:peace
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I agree jobs are the first priority! At some point though we will have to address unaffordable health care costs though that are driving people with jobs into bankruptcy.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

presluc said:
I agree that health care should be upgraded as every other industrialized country in the world.

However the way D.C. is today even to purpose such an upgrade , you would run into a mountain of red tape and after that a brick wall to break though.

Then it might if you're lucky hit the floor of the Senate for discussion.:peace
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At some point people will no longer be able to bear the costs and we will have upgrade as the rest of the industrialized world has done.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Catawba said:
At some point people will no longer be able to bear the costs and we will have upgrade as the rest of the industrialized world has done.
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Exactly. The pay for service model simply can't survive in a modern economy driven by technological innovation. We know why -- there is no price elasticity in health care, and there are huge information imbalances between consumers and suppliers. It's the wrong model. It's failing and will fail. It's sad how conservatives are so completely ideologically rabid that they refuse to accept economic reality.
 
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Re: We're Number......LAST

WhyteRash said:
funny.. thats what i was thinking.. but i decided to not be an ass about it.
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I see you changed your mind since. What evidence do you offer for the deliberate masquerade of health care data in every other developed nation in the world? Alternatively, what evidence do you offer for these primitives being unable to compile such statistics properly in the first place?
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

clownboy said:
Why not, the only thing you have to give up is your freedom, and Canadians are used to that, right? :mrgreen:

The point is, there are more costs than the economic. Some folks are willing to pay them, some aren't. A lot of people here in the US aren't. That's why UHC will be a long time coming here.
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UHC has already been a long time coming here.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Not as long as it has been needed.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

DVSentinel said:
UHC is not needed.
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As long as you think it's cool to be paying $7 a gallon for plain-vanilla off-brand regular while the rest of the world pays $4 a gallon for premium with all the additives. How many times are right-wingres willing to shoot themselves in the foot anyway? Is there a limit?
 
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