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New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last

Re: We're Number......LAST

it's perfectly correct grammar. Would it help if you put quotes around the words "pay for service"

As opposed to the words "socialized medicine" (in quotations just for you) that has failed in numerous countries? Also, you meant to begin your sentence about perfect grammar with "It's" instead of "it's" I'm sure.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

As opposed to the words "socialized medicine" (in quotations just for you) that has failed in numerous countries? Also, you meant to begin your sentence about perfect grammar with "It's" instead of "it's" I'm sure.

Pointing out typo's in other peoples' posts is the weakest form of debate. You might as well wave a white flag.

And pay for service health care has failed far more often than UHC systems
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Pointing out typo's in other peoples' posts is the weakest form of debate. You might as well wave a white flag.
Notice I countered your weak point prior to doing so. So there's the end of that......
And pay for service health care has failed far more often than UHC systems
Stats or it didn't happen. The bad part is, the entire premise of your point is to take the "better" failure of two failures. You don't see a problem with that?
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Notice I countered your weak point prior to doing so. So there's the end of that......

Stats or it didn't happen. The bad part is, the entire premise of your point is to take the "better" failure of two failures. You don't see a problem with that?

Let's see who can list more nations where the two types of systems have failed. I'll go first:

The US, every nation in Africa (there are 52), Afghanistan, India, and El Salvador

That gives 56 failures for pay for service.

Now list the nations where UHC has failed, or it didn't happen
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Let's see who can list more nations where the two types of systems have failed. I'll go first:

The US, every nation in Africa (there are 52), Afghanistan, India, and El Salvador

That gives 56 failures for pay for service.

Now list the nations where UHC has failed, or it didn't happen

Those aren't stats. That's your opinion. I want to see stats, from a source, and no you are not a source. You made the claim, back it up. Still hasn't happened.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Those aren't stats. That's your opinion. I want to see stats, from a source, and no you are not a source. You made the claim, back it up. Still hasn't happened.

Yes, they are statistics

You're the one who claimed the socialized medicine has failed in many nations. Let's see your stats
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Yes, they are statistics

You're the one who claimed the socialized medicine has failed in many nations. Let's see your stats
That I did. We can both agree it's failing here, correct? Medicare isn't solvent. So instead we doubled down and went further down the road with "Obama"care. Obamacare isn't totally instituted and we don't know if it will fail or not so I won't hypothesize on that. However, the latest GAO report and many economists don't see it working out. Anyway.
The UK: The Ugly Realities Of Socialized Medicine Are Not Going Away - Forbes
Canada: Rethinking Socialized Medicine In Canada - Investors.com
This article is great.Where in the world can you get universal health care? - CNN.com It shows every country with universal or near universal healthcare. And in almost every countries profile you see a tiny blurb about financial troubles, quality of care, and lack of facilities. Sure, it works at first. Then it's time to pay for it. That's the problem with universal or socialized healthcare. That whole paying for it thing.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Here are some interesting stats. Apologies, as they are four years old now. I'm sure that $7,960 figure is well over eight grand now, and growing.

The weird part is, everyone claims that people just die over here and are so poor because they don't have healthcare. Bogus. Heck, you can be an illegal immigrant and walk into a hospital and receive care.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

That I did. We can both agree it's failing here, correct? Medicare isn't solvent. So instead we doubled down and went further down the road with "Obama"care. Obamacare isn't totally instituted and we don't know if it will fail or not so I won't hypothesize on that. However, the latest GAO report and many economists don't see it working out. Anyway.
The UK: The Ugly Realities Of Socialized Medicine Are Not Going Away - Forbes
Canada: Rethinking Socialized Medicine In Canada - Investors.com
This article is great.Where in the world can you get universal health care? - CNN.com It shows every country with universal or near universal healthcare. And in almost every countries profile you see a tiny blurb about financial troubles, quality of care, and lack of facilities. Sure, it works at first. Then it's time to pay for it. That's the problem with universal or socialized healthcare. That whole paying for it thing.

None of those links indicate that socialized medicine has "failed" in any nation
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

The weird part is, everyone claims that people just die over here and are so poor because they don't have healthcare. Bogus. Heck, you can be an illegal immigrant and walk into a hospital and receive care.

That's not true.

If you have cancer, you can walk into a hospital, but unless you're on the verge of death, you probably won't get any care
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

None of those links indicate that socialized medicine has "failed" in any nation
So the UK and Canada moving away from it for financial and quality of care reasons and the same problems being found in the other countries programs isn't failing? Okay......
That's not true.

If you have cancer, you can walk into a hospital, but unless you're on the verge of death, you probably won't get any care
I tell you right now bro. If a family walks into the ER and says their kid is sick with a stomach ache and they have no insurance, they're receiving care.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

So the UK and Canada moving away from it for financial and quality of care reasons and the same problems being found in the other countries programs isn't failing? Okay......

I tell you right now bro. If a family walks into the ER and says their kid is sick with a stomach ache and they have no insurance, they're receiving care.

If by care, you mean "examined", you are right. But if by care, you mean "treated", then the only way the kid will receive treatment is if his condition is considered life-threatening.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/26/n...edical-efforts-nationwide.html?pagewanted=all

And neither Canada nor the UK are moving away from socialized medicine, and they're not moving one inch towards pay for service
 
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Re: We're Number......LAST

If by care, you mean "examined", you are right. But if by care, you mean "treated", then the only way the kid will receive treatment is if his condition is life-threatening.
Doctors are a lot more charitable than you give them credit for bro.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

My primary reason to oppose universal health care or single payer is it is in MY interest to do so. My rates are as low as you can get and the way I am set my families health care up, is essintially free, and on track to actually pay me. Change is NOT something I want.
I did understand you very well. It might be YOUR individual interest to do so. But compared to the addition of million of other individual interests, it doesn't weight very much, that's what I am saying. And that is why Obama care was voted at the end: it will hopefully benefit lots of million of people even if it does not benefit YOU personally.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

I did understand you very well. It might be YOUR individual interest to do so. But compared to the addition of million of other individual interests, it doesn't weight very much, that's what I am saying. And that is why Obama care was voted at the end: it will hopefully benefit lots of million of people even if it does not benefit YOU personally.

My interests to me outweigh the millions. Sorry but I am gona fight getting screwed out of my good deal. Dont particularly care about the millions since they seem intent on NOT leaving me and mine alone.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

1) Didn't ask you too
2) Yep, you guys can count. You do a great job. How's the Euro doing btw?
3) When you have a larger sample size, it effects the ratio. The margin or error is larger with a smaller sample size. I figured an all knowing European would know that:roll: Also, when the methods of gathering statistics are different, there is potential for collusion. I see that the World Health Organization took these stats. I doubt they surveyed people directly. They most likely gathered the stats from each country's gov't.
4) Having no health coverage has nothing to do with it. Any person can walk into a hospital here and received care. No one is turned away. That's common sense over here.
5) Numerous times. It sucks. I see why our ancestors wanted out so bad.
1) So you agree your opinion has no value compared to international statistics. Good.

2) At the moment, you'll get 1,331 dollar for 1 Euro - A 30% difference to the advantage of the Euro. Makes travelling in the US for us Europeans quite affordable.:cool:

3) Except that, of course, the stats formulas make up for this margin of error - in different ways, so that the results will be slightly different ... I thought such an enlightened guy as you would have known that :roll: In any case, the high difference in ranking the USA have to make up for cannot be explained by difference of sample size. Nor by some alleged inferior methods of recording of industralized countries with similar standards of living ...:roll: This is a very very very poor argument, especially by a poster who recognises that his opinion has no value compared to international statistics i.e that he does not know what he is talking about

4) Ah, ah ... Because people with no health coverage get access to all the services when they, let say, have been diagnotized with lung cancer? Interresting. I wonder why anybody is paying health insurance then.

5) I feel sorry for you. You should stay at home and not travel, this is obviously a waste of your money: it does not look like travelling has opened your mind.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

IOW, you can't back up your claim that every child who goes to an ER is treated.

You got PWNED
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news...d-ways-to-treat-uninsured-patients/50376350/1
About Us | The National Association of Free & Charitable Clinics
http://www.freemedicalcamps.com/index.php

Sure, I got PWNED by a guy who has still failed to provide any proof of any claim he's made.:lamo You are the exact kind of person no one cares to debate with. Your entire purpose is to "pwn" people, not prove any sort of point. You don't even know why you believe what you believe. You're just another automaton who regurgitates the thoughts of others and claims them as his own. We're done here. Have a good one.:coffeepap
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

1) So you agree your opinion has no value compared to international statistics. Good.

2) At the moment, you'll get 1,331 dollar for 1 Euro - A 30% difference to the advantage of the Euro. Makes travelling in the US for us Europeans quite affordable.:cool:

3) Except that, of course, the stats formulas make up for this margin of error - in different ways, so that the results will be slightly different ... I thought such an enlightened guy as you would have known that :roll: In any case, the high difference in ranking the USA have to make up for cannot be explained by difference of sample size. Nor by some alleged inferior methods of recording of industralized countries with similar standards of living ...:roll: This is a very very very poor argument, especially by a poster who recognises that his opinion has no value compared to international statistics i.e that he does not know what he is talking about

4) Ah, ah ... Because people with no health coverage get access to all the services when they, let say, have been diagnotized with lung cancer? Interresting. I wonder why anybody is paying health insurance then.

5) I feel sorry for you. You should stay at home and not travel, this is obviously a waste of your money: it does not look like travelling has opened your mind.
1) No, I simply stated that you can take my opinion or leave it. Simple as that.
2) LOL! Totally erroneous claim. The exchange rate for Euro vs the Dollar is 1 Euro for $1.25. However, unlike you guys, we don't have a Greece hanging around with a few countries after it ready to collapse. If the EU was so strong, it's entire future wouldn't hinge on what happens over here.
3) Really? So all of those different governments that had their stats gathered by so many different people/organizations and so many different methods all decided on a standard formula to gather stats for the World Health Organization? No one even knows what the WHO is, what it does, or anything else like that. They just produced some results that were shocking to some and a newspaper grabbed onto to it for a headline.
4) I will direct you to the debate with another user on this thread for the answer to this. There are many free health clinics across the US as well as the US gov't will pick up the tab in some cases.
5) Agreed, it was a waste of my money. However, it did open my mind. It opened it to the fact that I definitely do not want to live in Europe.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

I am sorry you had a bad experience when you were in Germany, but I am not surprised: Americans who are against socialist Obama care usually report a bad experience when they were in Europe , LOL :mrgreen:.

In fact, the German system is one of the most efficient systems in the world and attracts lost of foreign patients:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/21/w...alth-care-attracts-foreign-patients.html?_r=0

It fares better than the US on all counts and remains cheaper despite an aging poulation ...
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/m...t_sys_comparison_12_nations_intl_brief_v2.pdf

Yes, the obesity level is a problem in the USA but that is something where prevention is possible. And if the spending of drugs and of high tech is higher in the US than anywhere in the world, it's a shame if at the end there are still more ill people, a higher cancer death rates, higher infant mortality rates and shorter life expectancy ... Well, I am sure you know the statistics :cool:

A large part of our costs is not due to they type of system but due to the fact that we are by far the most self-destructive society on the planet.

Medical tourism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that between 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care...The availability of advanced medical technology and sophisticated training of physicians are cited as driving motivators for growth in foreigners traveling to the U.S. for medical care".

Germany is an attractive destination for patients from the Middle East since traveling to the USA has become more difficult for them since the September 11 attacks. US citizens sometimes travel to Germany to seek treatments such as artificial cervical disc replacement that are not US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved.

From your own link, check out the availability of MRI and CT Scanners, Two countries beat us on CT Scans. What is the availability of techniques such as Cyber Knife, robot surgeries and other new technologies? And check out the cancer survival rates section, we do very well in some categories and lead in some.

The chronic disease section really tells the story of some of our outstanding costs. Damn are we a self-destructive people. If we actually took better care of ourselves, most of those problems you mention go away and combine that with not forcing care givers to accept uninsured patients, our cost would be very low.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

From your own link, check out the availability of MRI and CT Scanners, Two countries beat us on CT Scans. What is the availability of techniques such as Cyber Knife, robot surgeries and other new technologies? And check out the cancer survival rates section, we do very well in some categories and lead in some.

The chronic disease section really tells the story of some of our outstanding costs. Damn are we a self-destructive people. If we actually took better care of ourselves, most of those problems you mention go away and combine that with not forcing care givers to accept uninsured patients, our cost would be very low.
I don' exactly know the availibility of all these robots and to be honest I don't really care. With or without these robots, fact remains that the care provided in this country where I presently live (Germany) is very good on all counts and that a baby born in Germany has, in statistical terms, a healthier and longer life in perspective than in the USA. Regarding "self destruction", if what you are referring to is obesity and smoking, as I said, prevention is possible. I don't know about the States but in Germany they set up such programmes.

And regarding your comment about "taking care of yourself", that helps none of those who get cancer.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

Considering the difference in availability of technology, a 5% of GDP higher cost really doesn't sound that bad.

Considering that it is government paid medical that is driving the deficit (mostly, anyway) and that it is private insurance that is putting a damper on employment, it sounds worse. We can't afford 32 grand on average for a family of four.
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

1) No, I simply stated that you can take my opinion or leave it. Simple as that.
2) LOL! Totally erroneous claim. The exchange rate for Euro vs the Dollar is 1 Euro for $1.25. However, unlike you guys, we don't have a Greece hanging around with a few countries after it ready to collapse. If the EU was so strong, it's entire future wouldn't hinge on what happens over here.
3) Really? So all of those different governments that had their stats gathered by so many different people/organizations and so many different methods all decided on a standard formula to gather stats for the World Health Organization? No one even knows what the WHO is, what it does, or anything else like that. They just produced some results that were shocking to some and a newspaper grabbed onto to it for a headline.
4) I will direct you to the debate with another user on this thread for the answer to this. There are many free health clinics across the US as well as the US gov't will pick up the tab in some cases.
5) Agreed, it was a waste of my money. However, it did open my mind. It opened it to the fact that I definitely do not want to live in Europe.
1) Well, I'll leave it then.:mrgreen:
2) :yawn:
XE: (EUR/USD) Euro to US Dollar Rate
(Mid-market rates: 2013-01-19 15:02 UTC)
:yawn:
So yes, we have Greece in the Euro zone and it looks like we wil make it that Greece stays in the Euro zone. So far so good.
3) I don't exactly understand your point but the fact that you do not know who the WHO is telling about the quality of your posting and why you prefer to stick to your own opinions based on what you would like to believe in order to feel superior ...
4) What I think is that you should redirect those who get lung cancer to these free clinics so that they get proper treatment: maybe with your support will the US better its international ranking in treating lung cancer. You do not need to redirect me: I get access to high quality care at home and in just any clinic.
5) Thank you for your understanding :2wave:
 
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