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New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last

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Wow. Really? Funny. Private health care here and I got my MRI for my knee in the same day I went to the doctor. I actually was in with the sports medicine surgeon the same day I saw my GP. It was a torn minuscus and I was able to get arthroscopic surgery the next week (decided to wait because I had final exams and could walk with crutches).

I know a ton of horror stories from the VA. Had a friend when I was in school who could barely get in for his PTSD stuff, let alone for the reoccurring medical problems from an IED he took in Iraq.

Congratulations, you are the exception more than the rule. The US is a big place, and quality of medical care varies drastically not only by location but also by doctor. However, you'll generally find that people in Germany wait much, much less long than the people in the US.
 
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1) all it takes is a simple statistics course to understand that when comparing data...you must take into account if reporting methods are different.
Thanks. I took those courses in high school. Kind of intrigued me, so I made a career out of it.

That doesn't take data analysis expertise.
How convenient for you. You get to make claims, and when questioned about their basis, you can just say I don't need no stinkin' basis.

Since you wish to use U.N. numbers...
Haven't cited a single UN number.

...I feel you need to be made aware that such numbers are acquired from respective national reporting centers. So where standards of reporting are different (and United States is amongst the highest in standards) then how can you compare them as equals?
What basis do you have for making THAT claim? It would seem to require the same sorts of insight that you have just admitted to not having with regard to other questions.

Let me guess. You won't accept that common knowledge fact right? Don't worry. Once I get home I will provide you with some websites (cell phone is hard to do that with).
Common knowledge? No, I most emphatically DO NOT accept such things.

2) and yet there are far more people to use up resources, and where there is more inner city there is more poverty. Poverty certainly doesn't help ones health care chances does it? Rural health care sucks. No doubt. But don't you think that poverty is a factor?
Public hospitals and free clinics are found in inner cities far more often than in the middle of nowhere. You do not need much in the way of resources to access those.

How much poverty and budget sucking inner city problems do they have in Europe?
Their poverty rates equal or exceed ours. Their population density is greater than ours.

3) yes. They do as a group. Now break it down into nations. Unless the EU finally merged into one nation...I'm not concerned about them as a group. My point remains valid.
Why would 27 nations have any more bearing than 50 states? They have more than 500 million people to deal with. We have more than 300 million. They provide better overall health care at lower per capita costs. End of story.
 
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I don't believe you. You like posting on the internetz to much!:2razz:

Trust me, given the option I'd go back there in an instant. Even without the internet and indoor plumbing.
 
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Trust me, given the option I'd go back there in an instant. Even without the internet and indoor plumbing.

I seriously think you have rose colored glasses on
 
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Do you yodel, then?

I'm not familiar with any yodeling in Norman England, Ireland, France, Italy, or Antioch. I may have missed the discussion of it in my readings, but I tend to think not.

I seriously think you have rose colored glasses on

Probably. I'm not saying it would be a fun, pleasant, or enjoyable experience; just better than what we have today.
 
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Took my grandmother less than a month to get Alzheimer's. Did your mom not have a lot of data or evidence? A lot of medicine is about having enough information to establish a course of action. My understanding is that in the early stages other disorders can present like Alzheimer's (senility maybe? Idk now).

So in the US, we need evidence to get a Drs' appt?
 
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I'm not making anything up, it's all true. Add to the problem that the Government pays directly to the providers for medicaid, and medicare rather than let the system self regulate via competitive options, and what you end up with is people that are on a government system where there is no, not a single incentive to shop your healthcare out...
You're living in a dream world. NO ONE is competent to shop around for health care. Medical consumers are uninformed buyers. This is a basic characteristic of the health care market. Even doctors outside their own specialty are clueless. You have a GP with whom you get along well. You have no ability to rank his or her actual skill, efficiency, or thoroughness. A pleasing manner is all that's required. If you have an actual problem, you get a referral to a specialist, maybe look the guy up on the internet, then you make an appointment. Then you do whatever that guy tells you to do. At most, you go get a "second opinion" from the guy he plays golf with. Face it -- nobody is shopping here for health care. Everybody is shopping for agents on whom they will depend to make decisions about their health care. That's the best anyone can do. And you expect to make an actual market out of that???
 
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You're living in a dream world. NO ONE is competent to shop around for health care. Medical consumers are uninformed buyers. This is a basic characteristic of the health care market. Even doctors outside their own specialty are clueless. You have a GP with whom you get along well. You have no ability to rank his or her actual skill, efficiency, or thoroughness. A pleasing manner is all that's required. If you have an actual problem, you get a referral to a specialist, maybe look the guy up on the internet, then you make an appointment. Then you do whatever that guy tells you to do. Ay most, you go get a "second opinion" from the guy he plays golf with. Face it -- nobody is shopping here for health care. Everybody is shopping for agents on whom they will depend to make decisions about their health care. That's the best anyone can do. And you expect to make an actual market out of that???

You're damned right I'd expect to make a market out of that! I don't know much about cars, but I do know or I can sense when things don't seem right when my mechanic tells me something is wrong with my car. Maybe my dream world is based on the assumption that I start by assuming the responsibility for my own accounting. Whether it's my health or my car, I don't assume ever that what I'm being told is always correct. I take it upon myself to become informed about everything that isn't trivial concerning myself and my families education, health and money to name a few.

Why, do you just take everyone's word on any matter that concerns you because you're not a doctor, or a car mechanic? Boy, are you really that niave or did you sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night? :)


tim-
 
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Are you going to expand on this, or am I to fill in the gaps on my own?
I encourage you to go ahead and invest in self-edification. I've already been over all this ground on my own behalf and see to reason to do it over again on account of your laziness. Plus it will mean more to you if you put the effort in yourself.
 
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I encourage you to go ahead and invest in self-edification. I've already been over all this ground on my own behalf and see to reason to do it over again on account of your laziness. Plus it will mean more to you if you put the effort in yourself.

Perhaps you could learn from your own bugget of wisdom here, and educate yourself about medical care and when it feels right or when it feels wrong, sparky.. LOL

What a joke.. Totally self pw'ned.. :)


Tim-
 
Re: We're Number......LAST

You're damned right I'd expect to make a market out of that! I don't know much about cars, but I do know or I can sense when things don't seem right when my mechanic tells me something is wrong with my car. Maybe my dream world is based on the assumption that I start by assuming the responsibility for my own accounting. Whether it's my health or my car, I don't assume ever that what I'm being told is always correct. I take it upon myself to become informed about everything that isn't trivial concerning myself and my families education, health and money to name a few.

Why, do you just take everyone's word on any matter that concerns you because you're not a doctor, or a car mechanic? Boy, are you really that niave or did you sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night? :)


tim-

Psssst: price inelasticity, information inequality, and one or two other well known market flaws. Try to stay with economic reality and you may sound a bit less unhinged.
 
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Psssst: price inelasticity, information inequality, and one or two other well known market flaws. Try to stay with economic reality and you may sound a bit less unhinged.

Oh that's right, I forgot you were an economist, and aren't you also a lawyer?


"price inelasticity" - "information inequality"... BAHAHAHAHA... You're the gift that keeps on giving HoJ.. Keep em coming brother.. :)


Tim-
 
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Psssst: price inelasticity, information inequality, and one or two other well known market flaws. Try to stay with economic reality and you may sound a bit less unhinged.

I'd just like to point out the futility of debating someone who can "sense" cancer, Alzheimers' and other diseases
 
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I'd just like to point out the futility of debating someone who can "sense" cancer, Alzheimers' and other diseases

I hear that conservative women's bodies can reject legitimate cancer
 
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You're damned right I'd expect to make a market out of that! I don't know much about cars, but I do know or I can sense when things don't seem right when my mechanic tells me something is wrong with my car. Maybe my dream world is based on the assumption that I start by assuming the responsibility for my own accounting. Whether it's my health or my car, I don't assume ever that what I'm being told is always correct. I take it upon myself to become informed about everything that isn't trivial concerning myself and my families education, health and money to name a few.
Hmmm. The "college visit" for instance. That's where you go someplace and look at buildings. Without serious advanced education, training, and hopefully relevant experience, you are in no position to understand education, health care, or financial systems. Like everyone else, you struggle along the best you can and hope that things work out.

Why, do you just take everyone's word on any matter that concerns you because you're not a doctor, or a car mechanic? Boy, are you really that niave or did you sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night?
I'm just being a realist, and you are not.
 
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Congratulations, you are the exception more than the rule. The US is a big place, and quality of medical care varies drastically not only by location but also by doctor. However, you'll generally find that people in Germany wait much, much less long than the people in the US.

Wait? You think I am the exception? I have friends who get seen equally as fast. Uncle had a torn ACL and was in surgery in 3 weeks (was mobile). My roommate broke his hand playing basketball, had the cast on same day, and was seeing the physical therapist same week. Grandfather had knee replacement surgery and it took him all of a month probably to actually get to the surgery, but he was 70 and had a host of other troubles (diabetes, etc). All of that was from different locations and it was all VERY speedy (minus recovery for the last...obviously takes a while).

Now. Of course it is going to vary depending on location. The above were ALL from different locations by different doctors in the state of Florida. All of them were covered by insurance though (roommate was done through the school insurance I believe). It literally took me longer to get seen for a workers comp accident (feel at my job cleaning up stuff at the state and had to get a Tet shot and like 8 stitches), than it did for my knee surgery (well minus the 8 hours of sleep between the knee injury and actually calling for an appointment...I injured it doing Brazilian Jujitsu).

The state was involved in the first one. I couldn't get seen till the workers comp stuff got through. It took like 4 hours for a simple stitch and stick that I probably could have had my father (a veterinarian) do FOR me in less time and for less money to the state. Heck. They got mad because I pulled the 8 stitches out with nail clippers when I didn't need them. I had to go BACK to urgent care to have a doctor go..."Looks good. Next patient."

I guess what I am saying is that sure it varies by doctor, but the less bureaucratic BS in the way the better. You had an awful time at the VA. That isn't a shocker. What does get me though is your statement. How can we have a single health care problem in the United States if we have a variety of locations with different response times, quality of care, number of patients, numbers of doctors, and so on and so forth? Maybe the United States is a special when it comes to health care? Maybe we can't be compared to Germany because Germany has far fewer people, and is much smaller geographically, and even less diverse than we are? I think that is my primary bug with health care. I see a lot of talk about how we should be like Europe, and yet no consideration for the fact that we are nowhere near comparable to European nations in terms of complexity. I am sure that that each of their own nations have their own individual health care problems, but they are smaller in scale and easier to handle (well "easier"...but still complex and beyond my mind in terms of handling).
 
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How convenient for you. You get to make claims, and when questioned about their basis, you can just say I don't need no stinkin' basis.
.

Giving you props on the quote.

Exactly where are you talking about though?

Haven't cited a single UN number.

Really? Are you aware that the numbers being used for comparison in the OP come from the WHO which is a part of the UN? Lol. Sorry. Lots of alphabet there. But seriously. If the numbers from the start are going to be talked about...they are using the WHO numbers as a big portion of their statistics (with some stuff from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development).

What basis do you have for making THAT claim? It would seem to require the same sorts of insight that you have just admitted to not having with regard to other questions.

https://www.google.com/search?q=uni...aqs=chrome.0.57.1112&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This is just on infant mortality. I know it was just a google search, but honestly just look up the different articles that are there. But just for some added flavor:

WHO | An interview with Joy Lawn: Hidden deaths of the world?s newborn babies

Notice this is from the WHO and it talks about the inaccuracy of infant mortality. Why? Kids fall through the cracks. Well. That is only in Africa right? Maybe Asia? Sadly. No. Countries define "live birth" differently. Try this on:

Bernadine Healy, M.D.: Behind the baby count - US News and World Report

I mean come on?

An Ill-Conceived Health-Care Ranking - WSJ.com

That is from the wall street Journal and talks about those "health rankings" that were so questionable. I think it is very important to note the bits about not taking into account dietary differences, and then the ones that do and how inconclusive they were.

In short. Just on infant mortality can you REALLY tell me that the WHO/UN reporting methods are all that "reliable?" Numbers can be fudged. Not in some sinister plot (which if we are to get real...the WHO has a universal health coverage agenda...because that is their mission so I can't fault them for having it)...but because as we HAVE discussed and YOU are trying to ignore...reporting standards differ and so those differences fudge the numbers as a side effect. Do I need to continue on the inadequacies of data reports from the UN?

Public hospitals and free clinics are found in inner cities far more often than in the middle of nowhere. You do not need much in the way of resources to access those.

How many people have to go to the public hospitals and free clinics? So compare numbers of doctors to numbers of patients. Who do you think will have a higher work load? City or rural? Do you think that number of patients doesn't contribute to a decline in overall healthcare for a particular doctor/region? Just because there is "access" doesn't mean the quality is good. Rural can't be compared to city. Why? Differences. Variety of different abilities in different areas. So...

Their poverty rates equal or exceed ours. Their population density is greater than ours.

Why would 27 nations have any more bearing than 50 states? They have more than 500 million people to deal with. We have more than 300 million. They provide better overall health care at lower per capita costs. End of story

Which country? AGAIN. I really shouldn't need to explain this but I will. We are talking about the rankings of the United States compared to 27 nations. That means the averages of 27 nations. 50 states is equivalent to the policies of 27 nations. The budgets and income are going to be different. Germany isn't trying to deal with French or Polish or Italian health care issues when they are brought to the table. United States Government politicians are going to have to deal with New York, Florida, Mississippi, California, and so on. If we are going to discuss national policies...you need to pick a nation. Last time I checked...Europe wasn't a nation.
 
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I'd just like to point out the futility of debating someone who can "sense" cancer, Alzheimers' and other diseases

Why do you go to the doctor? Is it because you're feeling hunky dory.. :)


I swear, speaking with you hurts my brain, but in a good it hurts so good sort of way..



Tim-
 
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Hmmm. The "college visit" for instance. That's where you go someplace and look at buildings. Without serious advanced education, training, and hopefully relevant experience, you are in no position to understand education, health care, or financial systems. Like everyone else, you struggle along the best you can and hope that things work out.


I'm just being a realist, and you are not.

I have no direct formal education or training in education, healthcare, or financial systems, yet, I understand them very well, in fact I understand them so well that I am qualified to offer alternative solutions to them. And.... I have many times, including here in this thread.

What is a realist exactly? :)


Tim-
 
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I guess what I am saying is that sure it varies by doctor, but the less bureaucratic BS in the way the better. You had an awful time at the VA. That isn't a shocker. What does get me though is your statement. How can we have a single health care problem in the United States if we have a variety of locations with different response times, quality of care, number of patients, numbers of doctors, and so on and so forth? Maybe the United States is a special when it comes to health care? Maybe we can't be compared to Germany because Germany has far fewer people, and is much smaller geographically, and even less diverse than we are? I think that is my primary bug with health care. I see a lot of talk about how we should be like Europe, and yet no consideration for the fact that we are nowhere near comparable to European nations in terms of complexity. I am sure that that each of their own nations have their own individual health care problems, but they are smaller in scale and easier to handle (well "easier"...but still complex and beyond my mind in terms of handling).
Inside the hospitals the system doesn't fundamentally work any different, it comes down to who is paying for it. In Germany your taxes are itemized, and if you want to opt out of the public health insurance you get that tax break, but can't ever come back. For those that do whant to pay, they can. Germany has 80 million people, and the US 300 million, there's nothing about a larger population that makes something like that impossible here. Especially when you consider the health care systems are taken care of at the state level in both places.

Second, it wasn't the VA, it was just the Army, while still active duty, but even before I joined I had many bad experiences, and talking to other people throughout the years, the overall impression I've always gotten was that wait times can be very long. Even in this thread people have been talking about how long they've had to wait for several different services. I personally think we lack the real infrastructure. There's something fundamentally wrong with the system when it takes weeks to months to get a specialty appointment in a lot of places.

I've made it quite clear in the past that I think obamacare is a horrible, horrible idea, but don't try to compare that with Germany's system and reject them both together, especially when you have absolutely no idea what their system is like.
 
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Inside the hospitals the system doesn't fundamentally work any different, it comes down to who is paying for it. In Germany your taxes are itemized, and if you want to opt out of the public health insurance you get that tax break, but can't ever come back. For those that do whant to pay, they can. Germany has 80 million people, and the US 300 million, there's nothing about a larger population that makes something like that impossible here. Especially when you consider the health care systems are taken care of at the state level in both places.

Second, it wasn't the VA, it was just the Army, while still active duty, but even before I joined I had many bad experiences, and talking to other people throughout the years, the overall impression I've always gotten was that wait times can be very long. Even in this thread people have been talking about how long they've had to wait for several different services. I personally think we lack the real infrastructure. There's something fundamentally wrong with the system when it takes weeks to months to get a specialty appointment in a lot of places.

I've made it quite clear in the past that I think obamacare is a horrible, horrible idea, but don't try to compare that with Germany's system and reject them both together, especially when you have absolutely no idea what their system is like.


A single payer plan was the president's preferred upgrade. What we got instead was Congresscare, devised by the conservative Heritage Foundation as alternative to a single payer plan. Being the dagblasted pragmatist that he is, he went along with the Congresscare plan as way to provide health care insurance to 50 million Americans that couldn't afford it, and paid for it by cutting fraud and waste in the medicare program. Its a baby step up from what we had before, but we will still need to upgrade to a single payer system at some point to actually reduce the cost of health care in this country.
 
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A single payer plan was the president's preferred upgrade. What we got instead was Congresscare, devised by the conservative Heritage Foundation as alternative to a single payer plan. Being the dagblasted pragmatist that he is, he went along with the Congresscare plan as way to provide health care insurance to 50 million Americans that couldn't afford it, and paid for it by cutting fraud and waste in the medicare program. Its a baby step up from what we had before, but we will still need to upgrade to a single payer system at some point to actually reduce the cost of health care in this country.

Germany is a multipayer system, so even more things that set it apart.

Obamacare didn't actually do anything to lower the costs of healthcare for the average citizen. In fact, most people's health care costs have risen. There's good reason why not too many big pharma and medical lobbies fought it, it's absolutely great for their business to take massive taxpayer funding.
 
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