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Thread: New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last

  1. #451
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    People who live unhealthy lifestyles and/or who engage in risky pursuits pay more for life insurance than the rest of us do. Why couldn't the same apply to health insurance?
    About 40% of Americans who have any of it at all have group life insurance and have never been rated at all. Why can't health insurance be like that?

    And again, your lifestyle obsession grows out of a raft of population studies which are good at finding correlations worthy of further investigation. These studies do not explain their findings. They merely report them. Can you actually find causation here? At an individual level? With sufficient precision to be able to make rating decisions at that level? Don't kid yourself.

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    About 40% of Americans who have any of it at all have group life insurance and have never been rated at all. Why can't health insurance be like that?

    And again, your lifestyle obsession grows out of a raft of population studies which are good at finding correlations worthy of further investigation. These studies do not explain their findings. They merely report them. Can you actually find causation here? At an individual level? With sufficient precision to be able to make rating decisions at that level? Don't kid yourself.
    It's really a matter of odds, or what insurance people call "actuariels". People with a high BMI, people who smoke, people who never exercise, are more likely to need expensive medical procedures than the rest of us. Moreover, those conditions can be changed by the individual.
    Therefore, it makes sense to charge them a little more, and make up the added costs and motivate them to change their lifestyles as well.
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    What we have now, no question about it. Every other modern nation on Earth has universal health care, and we pay more than any of them by far.
    Strange you would think Americans would want to save tax dollars wouldn't you.
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    It's really a matter of odds, or what insurance people call "actuariels". People with a high BMI, people who smoke, people who never exercise, are more likely to need expensive medical procedures than the rest of us.
    So are tall people, short people, thin people, stupid people, people for whom English is a second language, the foreign-born population, people who travel frequently, southerners, the homeless, meat-eaters, and a whole range of other people. It's probably human nature to think we're as healthy as a horse and it's all those other sick people who are causing all the problems, and that might even be true at a particular point in time. But the chances that it will continue to be true are slim and none. The purpose of insurance is to smooth the inevitable spikes in health care costs so that even sick and injured people can afford treatment when the time comes. You are working to defeat that purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Moreover, those conditions can be changed by the individual. Therefore, it makes sense to charge them a little more, and make up the added costs and motivate them to change their lifestyles as well.
    So we hear routinely the nonsense notion that poor people are poor because they are lazy, and now it turns out that sick people are sick because they are lazy as well? Maybe it's the people who make up reasons to smear other people who are lazy, since they keep coming up with the same one all the time? Or maybe take a step over into the real world where health care professionals have been working on these very issues for decades and realize that the problems aren't quite as elementary as they are too often taken to be.

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    Strange you would think Americans would want to save tax dollars wouldn't you.
    I have nothing against saving tax dollars. But using socialism on a broad scale for an unlimited time, in any form, is totally unacceptable.
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    That wasn't my question.

    So you got 12 million people trying and failing to get jobs with the job opportunity where it is, my question remains.
    THERE ARE LESS JOBS WHY?
    Because according to some but many a huge majority of unemployed are not even trying to find a job.
    Now I can not quote the exact number but since you have 12 million people trying and failing to find jobs ,lets say 12 million not looking for jobs or not trying.

    If my math is correct if the ones that are not looking all started to look at the same time., that's 24 million people looking for work when 12 million can't find work.

    Question does America want everybody out of work to start looking at the same time from ages 18 to 63 ?
    Ok, since I'm still not sure what you're talking about, let's go through the actual numbers real quick. For convenience of comparison, since some of the data-series are not seasonally adjusted, I'll use the not seasonally adjusted numbers throughout which means the UE level and rate will be a little different from the headline numbers reported.
    Adult Civilian Non-Institutional Population (16 years and older not active duty military, in prison or other institution): 244,350,000
    Labor Force (employed + unemployed): 154,904,000
    Employed (includes farm workers, self-employed, unpaid family workers): 143,060,000
    Unemployed (did not work, but was available for work and actively looked for work in the previous 4 weeks): 11,844,000
    Not in the Labor Force (did not work and did not look for work or was not available for work): 89,445,000

    Let's break down the Not in the Labor Force category in Table A-38:
    Do Not Want a Job Now: 82,914,000
    Want a Job: 6,532,000
    Of those Not in the Labor Force who say they want a job (and aren't classified unemployed because they're not available or haven't looked for work)
    Did Not Look for Work in Previous Year: 3,252,000
    Looked in Last Year but not last 4 weeks: 3,280,000
    Of those...
    Not available now: 667,000
    Marginally Attached (available now): 2,614,000
    Discouraged (stop looking because believed would be unsuccessful): 1,068,000
    Other Marginally Attached (stopped looking for personal reasons): 1,545,000

    So, besides the fact that your guess of "12 million not looking for jobs or not trying" (which is either 89 million or 6.5 million or lower) by what standard would you call people not attempting to work "unemployed?"

    Now for "jobs," I'm not sure if you mean jobs held or job openings. We have to switch definitions a little and exclude agriculture, self employed and unpaid family members (and go back a little further for available data). Table B-1 Not Seasonally adjusted, there were 134,822,000 non-farm payroll jobs (that's jobs actually held) and on the last day of November 2012 there were 3,248,000 job openings (non-farm payroll jobs) according to the Job Openings Labor Turnover Survey.
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    So are tall people, short people, thin people, stupid people, people for whom English is a second language, the foreign-born population, people who travel frequently, southerners, the homeless, meat-eaters, and a whole range of other people. It's probably human nature to think we're as healthy as a horse and it's all those other sick people who are causing all the problems, and that might even be true at a particular point in time. But the chances that it will continue to be true are slim and none. The purpose of insurance is to smooth the inevitable spikes in health care costs so that even sick and injured people can afford treatment when the time comes. You are working to defeat that purpose.


    So we hear routinely the nonsense notion that poor people are poor because they are lazy, and now it turns out that sick people are sick because they are lazy as well? Maybe it's the people who make up reasons to smear other people who are lazy, since they keep coming up with the same one all the time? Or maybe take a step over into the real world where health care professionals have been working on these very issues for decades and realize that the problems aren't quite as elementary as they are too often taken to be.
    I'm not sure how you could possibly have gotten all of that from my posts.
    It is well known that people who are obese and/or smokers are more likely to get sick than the average person. They are also more likely to die at an early age. Those are simply facts. Life insurance costs them more. Why shouldn't health insurance cost them more as well?

    I didn't say anything about tall, short, rich, poor, or any other group of people.
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    How does Obamacare fit in? Now, that's a good question. The mandate that everyone have insurance would still have to be there. The very wealthy, or just those who object to any sort of government funded program would have the option of private insurance.
    There is a problem there if too many people opt out of the system ... I would agree on the first term but, at least in the USA, see a problem with the second term (in bold).

    In Germany, the "very wealthy" have no obligation to be in the public system - that is not SO wealthy since from a monthly earning of 3.937, - (5.299 dollars i.e approx. 63.000 dollars/ year) ... Those who decide to stay in the public system pay a maximum fee amounting to approx. 300 / month on their salary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Everyone has some income. Even the very poor should have to pay at least a token, as that which is free is seen as having no value.
    Are you so sure about this? This is not so much the income the problem but what is left of an income once you paid for food and lodging ..
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    I have nothing against saving tax dollars. But using socialism on a broad scale for an unlimited time, in any form, is totally unacceptable.
    FYI, the US has been "using socialism on a broad scale for an unlimited time" in many forms
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    So let's see:

    From the article in The Atlantic:

    In presenting their findings Wednesday, the authors seemed to be urging the U.S. to do some soul searching. Our culture "cherishes independence" and "wants to limit the intrusion of government in our personal lives," said Steven Woolf, director of the Center for Human Needs at Virginia Commonwealth University, the panel chairman. While those values serve us in some ways, he said, our resistance to regulation "may work against our ability to achieve optimal health outcomes."

    So I suppose it's possible to surmise the author, and those who conducted the study are suggesting it is our freedoms and our desire to restrict the intrusion of government that is to blame for our "poor" showing.

    Only is highly structured, and heavily regulated societies does one have the chance to live healthy lives.

    Gee, seems quite possible a hidden bias could be at play.............

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