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Thread: New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last

  1. #341
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Your post makes no sense



    Cite please



    The fed spends 21% of WHAT? 21% of GDP on health care? 21% of its budget on health care? 21% of the total spending on health care?

    And provide a cite, please



    We can't conclude anything from some poorly written nonsense



    Cite?



    No it doesn't mean they spend 12% on "everything but health care". It means that the fed spends 12% of GDP on health care, not counting what it spends on Medicare/Medicaid/Veterans together (note: I'm assuming you meant the 21% referred to 21% of GDP)



    12% is not more than the other 79%



    True



    Not true



    Agreed
    You didn't understand my post at all.

    But, here are some citations:

    % of gdp: this one is a couple of years old, but the numbers are close enough to make the point:

    United States

    Total expenditure on health per capita: $7,960
    Expenditure as percent of GDP: 17.4 percent (the most)
    Annual growth of total health expenditure: +2.2 percent (14th least)
    Life expectancy: 78.2 years (27th highest)
    Federal spending as a percent of GDP does fluctuate. Currently, it is a little more than I said:

    With nominal GDP under our belt, we now know what the government’s spending, revenue and deficit was as a percent of GDP. In FY 2012, the federal government spent 22.77% of GDP while it took in 15.76% of GDP. The deficit came to 7.01% of GDP.
    So, now with more precise figures, do the math again and see if I'm not right: Take out the amount spent by the federal government for health care (Medicare, Medicaid, and Veteran's), then compare that figure with health care spending over all.

    If you do the math carefully, you too will understand that health care spending (public and private) outstrips all federal spending on everything else.
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  2. #342
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    You didn't understand my post at all.
    No, I didn't

    But, here are some citations:

    % of gdp: this one is a couple of years old, but the numbers are close enough to make the point:



    Federal spending as a percent of GDP does fluctuate. Currently, it is a little more than I said:



    So, now with more precise figures, do the math again and see if I'm not right: Take out the amount spent by the federal government for health care (Medicare, Medicaid, and Veteran's), then compare that figure with health care spending over all.

    If you do the math carefully, you too will understand that health care spending (public and private) outstrips all federal spending on everything else.
    OK, now I understand that your %'s were a % of GDP. Now can you tell me where you got "Medicare/Medicaid/Veterans together" acct for 9% of GDP. Id true, that means that more than 42% of the Fed budget is spent on those three pgms

    According to this chart, Fed spending on health care doesn't come close to 42% of the Fed budget


    Federal Spending by the Numbers - 2012
    Last edited by sangha; 01-20-13 at 02:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  3. #343
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Dude, you do understand that is saying 1 Euro to $1.33 US right? You said in the previous post 1 Euro to $1,333 US. Was that a typo?

    Well, we have California so we're even lol.

    You live in Germany correct?
    I don't exactly remember what the point of this conversation was...

    PS. Using a coma and not a point is the non English way of writing figures while the point is used to separate separate centimals. - 3.000, - € and not 3.000 Euros (for example) or 1,55 € instead 1.55 Euros. Maybe I should write "non American" because my British colleagues actually understand this way of writing. (Unless they are too polite ...)
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    But it's not in his individual interest. Living in a place with such a system means much more money for his care
    If his individual insurance policy is lower than if he had to paid in a general system? Lets say he is 30 years old, does not smoke, has no overweight, has no genetic predisposition, has never gone through psychotherapy etc. If on top of this he has a good income, and for a limited set of service XYZ, a private insurance policy may be cheaper than in the general system. At least as long as he stays 30 years old all his life ...
    "Never argue with stupid people, they will drive you down to their level and then beat you with experience" (Marc Twain)

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by WhyteRash View Post
    i tend to look at these and think 'yea.. were still the highest accurately and honestly reported of all the above'..
    Because unlike America, the other developed nations of the world are backward and primitive societies that have not yet learned how to count properly and do not therefore understand or appreciate the value of collecting high quality data and statistics about how things are going where they are. Right?

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
    At least as long as he stays 30 years old all his life ...
    The free-rider problem. Some of these people actually root for free-riders and cheer them on.

  7. #347
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
    I don't exactly remember what the point of this conversation was...
    LOL. It was about my lack of belief in the WHO's data collection techniques. It's cool, I'm tired of debating it too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
    PS. Using a coma and not a point is the non English way of writing figures while the point is used to separate separate centimals. - 3.000, - € and not 3.000 Euros (for example) or 1,55 € instead 1.55 Euros. Maybe I should write "non American" because my British colleagues actually understand this way of writing. (Unless they are too polite ...)
    The website used a decimal, I've always used one when writing dollar amounts, so I thought you had a typo. No worries.
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  8. #348
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Kicking the uninsured off would make it cheaper, no doubt, but probably still not cheap enough. Doing so could have some serious consequences, too, it seems to me.

    Four years of PE would be a great idea. We used to have PE all four years when I was in high school. Back then, there were very few obese kids. I can remember one in our PE class of 40 or so. Of course, we got a lot of exercise chasing mammoths and such (yes, that was a little joke).

    Making parents parent. Now, there's an idea. If only we could do that, most of our social problems would evaporate.
    There are going to be serious consequences not matter which route we take. Change will always cause problems. But in this case, no change would also cause serious problems. Socializing medicine in the US would reduce costs, but ending the major source of innovation and advancement would have even more drastic costs (not monetary) for the whole human race. Socialist and socialized systems, outside of defense, are always stagnate with little advancement and innovation. The UHC countries don't even realize how much they benefit from the US system. Fortunately, there are still some, even outside the US, that operate medical services that are not socialized. Will they be enough to sustain progress? I don't think so, but that is only my opinion.

    I am a firm believer in a person is only entitled to what they earn. Although it is rapidly changing, poverty and lack of healthcare insurance in the US have been the product of personal choices, not mandated by society. Those choices by some have affected the costs to the whole. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and in the US, those few, around 15% live under the poverty line, is bankrupting the other 85% of us.

    Yep, America was healthier then, at least I believe so. But then, we didn't have X-boxes or Satellite/Cable TV and we went outside to play all day when not in school.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Because unlike America, the other developed nations of the world are backward and primitive societies that have not yet learned how to count properly and do not therefore understand or appreciate the value of collecting high quality data and statistics about how things are going where they are. Right?
    no even primitive cultures can count, but they couldnt possibly have the means or interest in doing an accurate job of it. so any information they'd bring would be questionable.

    instead i simply believe that many "modern" countries are just not forthcoming with any damaging data in order to be viewed better on the "world stage", or perhaps some just don't tally these things and use estimates based on samplings to the good..

    IMO, there just seems to be alot of finger pointing at the USofA, using snippits of data that are very likely not "apples to apples".

  10. #350
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    There are going to be serious consequences not matter which route we take. Change will always cause problems. But in this case, no change would also cause serious problems. Socializing medicine in the US would reduce costs, but ending the major source of innovation and advancement would have even more drastic costs (not monetary) for the whole human race. Socialist and socialized systems, outside of defense, are always stagnate with little advancement and innovation. The UHC countries don't even realize how much they benefit from the US system. Fortunately, there are still some, even outside the US, that operate medical services that are not socialized. Will they be enough to sustain progress? I don't think so, but that is only my opinion.
    "Socializing" medicine isn't really the answer either, not for a nation with a dysfunctional government like the USA. Even the Canadians are having some issues, though not as severe as we have in the USA. Surely to goodness our government could get its act together enough to initiate a universal catastrophic care sort of plan that could be outsourced and run as a government regulated monopoly, but, even that may be asking too much of the current Congress. What is for sure is that the current system is not affordable, and that asking employers to take responsibility is a huge job killer.

    As for innovation and advancement, how do you know what you're saying is right? Don't I remember reading about an AIDS vaccine being developed in Canada, for example?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    I am a firm believer in a person is only entitled to what they earn. Although it is rapidly changing, poverty and lack of healthcare insurance in the US have been the product of personal choices, not mandated by society. Those choices by some have affected the costs to the whole. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and in the US, those few, around 15% live under the poverty line, is bankrupting the other 85% of us.

    Not necessarily. If your job is "downsized" and you're laid off at the ripe old age of 50 or so and with dependents, you will lose health insurance and probably are not going to be able to pick it up on your own, especially if you or one of your family members has health issues.

    Moreover, people on disability or some other government program will lose their Medicaid if they go to work. That sounds to me like a big disincentive for entering the labor force, as the chances of them getting a job that provides health benefits are slim to none.
    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Yep, America was healthier then, at least I believe so. But then, we didn't have X-boxes or Satellite/Cable TV and we went outside to play all day when not in school.
    That's the way I remember it, too. If it wasn't dark or raining hard, we were outside or in school.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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