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Thread: New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last

  1. #281
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I don't believe half of this crap. For one, I'll wager we keep better stats than most people. Two, we have a much higher sample size than the other nations that were measured. Three, have any of you been to Europe before? Those people smoke like friggin chimneys man. There's no way we have more people with cancer here.


    1) You don't like these stats ------>> You don't believe them. OK ... . But why would anybody believe you, an anonymous poster on the Internet?

    2) What makes you say the US keep better stats than any other country in the world? That's bit arrogant to assert, no? What's your evidence to support this arrogance? We have statistical institutes in Europe, you know. We also get an education and know how to count. Actually statistics were developed in Europe. And anyway, you were actually saying that you were not believing these stats? So, do you or don't you believe them?

    3) The sample size is not what matters as long as the result is a ratio (a "rate") rather than a volume (a "total number") That's the beauty of stats.

    4) If you actually knew how to read, you would see that the stats are not about the number of people get lung cancer, but about the rate of those who die of lung cancer. There may be (maybe) less people who get lung cancer in the States but there are comparatively more who die of lung cancer - which, excuse me, is not surprising if so many people have no health insurance coverage or insufficient health coverage ... That's actually common sense.

    5) Have you actually been to Europe?

  2. #282
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
    I am not sure whether I should laugh at such a naive response or cry ...

    Don't you see that people of African heritage, as you label it, are also those who have the less access to health care in the USA? Wouldn't you think that their reduced access to health care is the cause of their higher decease rates rather than ... their genes? In fact, your example shows exactly this: all race/ethnicities don't get equal access to care. If they did, it wouldn't so much matter with what kind of illness they are being cured for ... African people would get cured for their sickle cells and European people for their hemopholia ...

    Besides, contrary to what wou think, Germany too has a mixed population, or France, or the Netherlands ...
    No one is denied healtcare in the US. For the poor, they have Medicaid. So your "they have less access to care" is a fallacy. Many, of all races, should be denied care, but they are not.

    Germany--German 91.5%, Turkish 2.4%, Italian 0.7%, Greek 0.4%, Polish 0.4%, other 4.6%

    United States --White: 211,460,626 (75.1%); Black: 34,658,190 (12.3%); Asian: 10,242,998 (3.6%); American Indian and Alaska Native: 2,475,956 (0.9%); Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander: 398,835 (0.1%); other race: 15,359,073 (5.5%); Hispanic origin:1 35,305,818 (12.5%)

    Germany is hardly multi-ethnic to any extent when compared to the US.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  3. #283
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    The WHO would disagree with that, but then, what do they know? How can we take their word over that of someone posting anonymously posting on an internet forum?
    Because I offer all the opportunity to take their blinders off and I point out fallacies with such systems. Don't take my word, simply use it to view the WHO differently. But then WHO use UHC as a weighted measure when determining the ranking of a healthcare system. How do we rank when you take the socialist agenda out of the measure?
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Yeah. Well, for profit medicine can't operate until the the doctor makes sure the patient is sick enough to need treatment. Like the pharmaceutical ruse of injecting the flu vaccine to GIVE you the flu, so you need to go back to the doctor to get more medicine.
    Alex Carey:

    ... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

    Australian social scientist, quoted by Noam Chomsky in World Orders Old and New

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Because I offer all the opportunity to take their blinders off and I point out fallacies with such systems. Don't take my word, simply use it to view the WHO differently. But then WHO use UHC as a weighted measure when determining the ranking of a healthcare system. How do we rank when you take the socialist agenda out of the measure?
    I'm not sure, how?
    and why shouldn't access to health care be a part of the formula for evaluating a health care system?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I'm not sure, how?
    and why shouldn't access to health care be a part of the formula for evaluating a health care system?
    Depends on what you define as "access". Number of hospitals per capita, doctors per capita, testing equipment/procedures available per capita are all useful measures of access. People who have not done what is necessary to earn healthcare being granted it, is not a good measure of access. Of course, the US and other "first world" nations are different from others because here, we have plenty of opportunity to better ourselves and earn better for ourselves. Third world countries and worse, they don't have any opportunity to better themselves other than maybe revolution against their governments, so they should be measured differently.

    Places like the US, where poverty is more a matter of choice than a matter of lack of opportunity, I say if they don't earn, they don't deserve it.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  7. #287
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Depends on what you define as "access". Number of hospitals per capita, doctors per capita, testing equipment/procedures available per capita are all useful measures of access. People who have not done what is necessary to earn healthcare being granted it, is not a good measure of access. Of course, the US and other "first world" nations are different from others because here, we have plenty of opportunity to better ourselves and earn better for ourselves. Third world countries and worse, they don't have any opportunity to better themselves other than maybe revolution against their governments, so they should be measured differently.

    Places like the US, where poverty is more a matter of choice than a matter of lack of opportunity, I say if they don't earn, they don't deserve it.
    and the bar for having earned it keeps getting higher and higher as costs soar and wages stagnate.

    Should cost be a part of the evaluation, or is the sky the limit?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    No one is denied healtcare in the US. For the poor, they have Medicaid. So your "they have less access to care" is a fallacy. Many, of all races, should be denied care, but they are not.

    Germany--German 91.5%, Turkish 2.4%, Italian 0.7%, Greek 0.4%, Polish 0.4%, other 4.6%

    United States --White: 211,460,626 (75.1%); Black: 34,658,190 (12.3%); Asian: 10,242,998 (3.6%); American Indian and Alaska Native: 2,475,956 (0.9%); Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander: 398,835 (0.1%); other race: 15,359,073 (5.5%); Hispanic origin:1 35,305,818 (12.5%)

    Germany is hardly multi-ethnic to any extent when compared to the US.
    I am not saying that anybody is being denied healthcare in the USA ... I am stating a well-known fact that many people in the USA can't afford health care. This is race-unrelated but income-related. And this is something I understand Obama has been trying to fix.

    Germany is not as multi-ethnic as the USA, true, but that is hardly the reason why the health care system there is more efficient.
    If what you are saying is that the "Arian race" has a better health than, let say, Turkish people, well first this is a racist argument the Nazis would have loved, second there is no evidence for this anyway, third this is completely irrelevant because everybody in Germany gets access to the whole range of available health care services regardless of their "race" and income and this everybody is one reason why altogether the German health care system fares better than the US one.

    ...

    PS. Oh! And by the way, your statistics on Germany are flawed. They record the "nationality", not the "race" or "ethnicity" ... Therefore little surprise that 91 % of the German population is German since this is Germany. Your stats only indicate that 10% non German nationals live in Germany - And I belong to them since I am a French resident in Germany with full access to the German health care system, thank you.

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    and the bar for having earned it keeps getting higher and higher as costs soar and wages stagnate.

    Should cost be a part of the evaluation, or is the sky the limit?
    Depends. Can you actually separate out how much caring for the un-insured is costing us? How many could afford insurance if there was not the added cost of caring for these leeches? How much in added cost do we have due to our allowing our patients to be overcharged on drugs so that the drug can be offered to the third world cheaper? How much is the added due levels of technology and other advances that we have and are the only system paying for?

    I look back and see that the cost for policies has skyrocket since care for the indigent became mandatory. It is kind of like when auto insurance became mandatory in all 50 states, cost skyrocketed something like 3,000% in only a couple of years.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
    I am not saying that anybody is being denied healthcare in the USA ... I am stating a well-known fact that many people in the USA can't afford health care. This is race-unrelated but income-related. And this is something I understand Obama has been trying to fix.

    Germany is not as multi-ethnic as the USA, true, but that is hardly the reason why the health care system there is more efficient.
    If what you are saying is that the "Arian race" has a better health than, let say, Turkish people, well first this is a racist argument the Nazis would have loved, second there is no evidence for this anyway, third this is completely irrelevant because everybody in Germany gets access to the whole range of available health care services regardless of their "race" and income and this everybody is one reason why altogether the German health care system fares better than the US one.

    ...

    PS. Oh! And by the way, your statistics on Germany are flawed. They record the "nationality", not the "race" or "ethnicity" ... Therefore little surprise that 91 % of the German population is German since this is Germany. Your stats only indicate that 10% non German nationals live in Germany - And I belong to them since I am a French resident in Germany with full access to the German health care system, thank you.
    Obama is a socialist and is trying to socialize medicine. His so-called Obama care package was designed to make the system fail so that the Dems could the socialize the system.

    I don't know the different health requirements of German vs Turks, that is not a break down in the CDC documents.

    Having experienced the German healthcare system on two occasions, I wouldn't call it good or efficient. But then, the system in a major city like Berlin (isn't that the capital again now?) vs a smaller area like Heinsberg and Geilenkirchen, maybe it is much better in a bigger city.

    Differences in medical needs between different races and the level of diversity in the US is only one factor that raises our costs. Also look at our Obesity levels, WIN - Statistics, vs Germany's 60.1%. What are the differences in traffic accident rates, and many other factors.

    One thing that could greatly reduce our healthcare cost would be for other countries to pick up a lot more of the cost of developing/deploying new technology and drugs.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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