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Thread: New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last

  1. #271
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Great solutions for all of this:
    The highest rate of death by violence, by a stunning margin: Ban all guns, tell the bad people to please not use their illegal ones, watch the crime rate plummet like in Chicago......
    The highest rate of death by car accident, also dramatically so: Ban cars and walk everywhere. That will solve the fat people problem. Or, the gov't dictate that no car can go over 25mph. Hey! That'll save gas.
    The highest chance that a child will die before age 5: I won't make a joke here. Not appropriate. Though I seriously doubt it.
    The second-highest rate of death by coronary heart disease: Ban fatty foods, big sodas (lol NY), kick every obese person off of welfare.
    The second-highest rate of death by lung disease: Ban cigarrettes
    The highest teen pregnancy rate: Ban sex before 20. All females must be checked weekly for virginity. Why not males you ask? Because you can't physically check them. You can check most girls.
    The highest rate of women dying due to complications of pregnancy and childbirth: I'm sorry, I just don't believe that.

    I don't believe half of this crap. For one, I'll wager we keep better stats than most people. Two, we have a much higher sample size than the other nations that were measured. Three, have any of you been to Europe before? Those people smoke like friggin chimneys man. There's no way we have more people with cancer here.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  2. #272
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
    Err ... No, in fact, I feel I am completely responsible for my own well-being, thank you. I don't think my government is responsible for me ... My government is responsible for all kind of stuff but not for me.

    Besides being responsible for myself, I am also smart enough to want to pay the least possible for the highest possible well-being return. Get the highest return on any investment. This means that in some cases pooling resources with others will allow to get the highest return for myself. This is the case of health care for two reasons:
    1 - Risk assessment (the probability to become ill is quite high in a life time and increases with aging)
    2 -The high costs potentially associated with the realization of this risk.

    This pays out. Pooling resources collectively to pay for health care pays out. International comparsions are all quite unequivocal: these "pretty much anybody elses in the world" systems you refer to use for international comparaisons all fair better than the US in terms of investment (cost) and in terms of return of investment (degree of health).

    I don't think I need to post a link to demonstrate this well-known fact.

    To finish with, society may not be based on "caring for" but needs "caring for" and "feeling concern" to go forward.
    I will point out a couple of things for you to research on your own if you wish. You will notice that my country whether my countrymen admit it or not has a bit of political coruption. I am feeling very generous today. You will also notice especially with more indepth research that there is a significant difference in like industries such as education and medical by comparing the differnt parts and differenttiating which have significant government involvment and those that dont. I would suggest you look at the price rise differentials of general care supported by government verses voluntary procedures and cash basis custmomers. I am not going to give it away but your eyes will be opened.

    Theres a growing movement in my country of doctors going back to the kind of care we used to have which are house calls and a cash basis. Believe it or not my personal insurance plan for my familiy almost pays for itself and some years it does. Look into something called an HSA and you will see the mechanism by how I am able to do this.

    There is in my country two different types of insurance. "Real" insurance that covers major medical essintially life or death. Works just like auto or any other insurance covers pretty much everthing after the deductable which is considerable mine is $25,000.This is what I have. Then there is PrePaid medical which is what the majority of insurance around here is as supplied by most of the employers to their employees. Lots of things are coverered but there are copays and splits. Its also pretty spendy, especially if you look to buy on your own, around 550 or so a month depending on the plan and the size family you have. Basically though its a prepaid medical plan that will cover major medical.

    What works for you may not work for me. In fact my medical is paid for from the interest on the HSA. My insurance and medical essintially no cost to me directly after my intial investment, I dont believe in Germany you have anything quite comparable. In this country especially, one size definately does NOT fit all. We are not really comparable as my more so called "progressive" countrymen seem to think. We out here are a pretty diverse lot with different ways of living. Your not going to be able to make a straight across clean comparison. What works for you may only work for some of us. Thats what the fight is all about besides the power grab and individual rights issues.

    Pooling is a insurance strategy that I am well aware of. I prefer to be able to select the pool most advantages to me.

    Caring is not needed. Never really has been. Just an obligation to uphold a contract is all that is.
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  3. #273
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    I have a question about healthcare in America.

    We have billions if not trillions of dollars going into American healthcare each year.

    My question is quite simple where does it go?
    Drug companies.
    Hospitals most are charitable organizations
    Doctors most MD'S are underpaid.
    So where does the rest go???
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  4. #274
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    The fantasies of conservatives are getting more and more ornate.
    You spelled "delusional" wrong
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  5. #275
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
    So you're not free? I think you should take responsibility for your freedom.
    If you want not to jump in a pool that several like myself have decided to set up, there are a couple of possibilities. If you want no interference AT ALL, just go. As I said, nobody can prevent you from going and living in a cave... If you want to stay within a set group of people, let say because you have a family, you can still opt for a "I pay all my health care by myself" - simply don't take any salaried position and do not contract any private health insurance ... There is always a way not to participate in society.
    You miss the mark by thinking this is about me. It's not, I'm fine with giving single payer a go (not this bastard Obamacare BS). I don't believe it will work here, and will end up being a huge sucking nightmare, but I'm willing to give it a go and be proven wrong. I want to be proven wrong - but by reality, not some poster's hopes and dreams for reality.

    The assertion was made that our systems differ in how we view personal responsibility and the mix we allow between personal responsibility and group responsibility, and when and where each holds the most sway. YOU asserted that your society's mix was towards personal responsibility and tortured an example to show it. That is what I addressed, what I responded to. You should know that because I quoted the assertion you made and specifically addressed it.

    And no, to the further silliness, it is not possible, even here, to just withdraw to the cave and live without societal interference. Some busybody always gets concerned that you are "okay" and enlists the state to come check on you, to "do something" about you. It's an easy thing for the state to do, interfere. They can always pull out the fact that you don't own the cave, or if you do, that you're not paying the proper taxes on it or maintaining it the way the folks down the hill have legislated you must.

  6. #276
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    I have a question about healthcare in America.

    We have billions if not trillions of dollars going into American healthcare each year.

    My question is quite simple where does it go?
    Drug companies.
    Hospitals most are charitable organizations
    Doctors most MD'S are underpaid.
    So where does the rest go???
    That's a great question. I'd like to know myself.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  7. #277
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    The fantasies of conservatives are getting more and more ornate.
    The usual talking points with you and the standard lack of intelligent description or deduction as to the way the conclusion was made.

    Did I read correctly that you are European?
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  8. #278
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    I have a question about healthcare in America.

    We have billions if not trillions of dollars going into American healthcare each year.

    My question is quite simple where does it go?
    Drug companies.
    Hospitals most are charitable organizations
    Doctors most MD'S are underpaid.
    So where does the rest go???
    Hello old friend! I hope the winter has not been too chilly up North for you this winter!

    I think the most of it goes to profits by monopolies by health care providers.

    March/April 2012

    Gerald Friedman, Professor of economics, University of Massachusetts-Amherst

    “While providing superior health care,” the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act (HR 676), “would save as much as $570 billion now wasted on administrative overhead and monopoly profits. A single payer system would also make health-care financing dramatically more progressive by replacing fixed, income-invariant health-care expenditures with progressive taxes.”

    Friedman estimated that, in 2013, single payer would save $215 billion on administrative costs to providers, $23 billion on government administration, and $153 billion on private health insurance administration. It would also save $178 billion on drugs, medical equipment, and hospital care by reducing their market power, for a total of $570 billion. Of that, single payer would spend $110 billion extending coverage to all, $142 billion on eliminating co-pays and increasing utilization, especially home health care and dental, and $74 billion to raise Medicaid payment rates to providers, for a net savings of $244 billion.

    Friedman modeled one financing scheme consistent with HR 676: current federal health spending, current state Medicaid spending, plus a small financial transactions tax, high income surtax (6 percent on top 5 percent of income-earners), surtax on unearned income (6 percent), and 4-7 percent payroll tax (4 percent on bottom 40 percent). Compared with what people pay today in taxes, premiums and out-of-pocket payments, single payer would save money for 95 percent of Americans while providing medically necessary care to all."

    Funding a National Single-Payer System | Physicians for a National Health Program
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-17-13 at 10:27 PM.
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  9. #279
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    What works for you may not work for me. In fact my medical is paid for from the interest on the HSA. My insurance and medical essintially no cost to me directly after my intial investment, I dont believe in Germany you have anything quite comparable. In this country especially, one size definately does NOT fit all. We are not really comparable as my more so called "progressive" countrymen seem to think. We out here are a pretty diverse lot with different ways of living. Your not going to be able to make a straight across clean comparison. What works for you may only work for some of us. Thats what the fight is all about besides the power grab and individual rights issues.

    Pooling is a insurance strategy that I am well aware of. I prefer to be able to select the pool most advantages to me.
    Pooling is the insurance (a Swiss invention) strategy. There are no others. However, here are many ways to calculate this pool ... Lets not get into the details.

    Contrary to what Americans think about the European systems, they are usually a mix between private and public schemes. And they are constantly renegotiated. So what you're saying is actually not in contradiction to my assertion. And you know, surprise, surprise, we also have lots of different ways of living in Europe!

    However, I don't see what living styles have to do with health. Health is health and a human body a human body. A heavy smoker might get a lung cancer anywhere in the world regarless whther he lives in a truck on the route 66 or in a penthouse in Paris In both cases: better have a good health care!

    This is why I doubt the argument that this would not work out because Americans are so "special", LOL. As for corruption (your full post), that would be a problem in general regardless of the private or public nature of the insurances.

  10. #280
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    You miss the mark by thinking this is about me. It's not, I'm fine with giving single payer a go (not this bastard Obamacare BS). I don't believe it will work here, and will end up being a huge sucking nightmare, but I'm willing to give it a go and be proven wrong. I want to be proven wrong - but by reality, not some poster's hopes and dreams for reality.

    The assertion was made that our systems differ in how we view personal responsibility and the mix we allow between personal responsibility and group responsibility, and when and where each holds the most sway. YOU asserted that your society's mix was towards personal responsibility and tortured an example to show it. That is what I addressed, what I responded to. You should know that because I quoted the assertion you made and specifically addressed it.
    My assertion is that you have cliché and meaningless views about Europeans.

    I further explained to you that the issue of health care is not about responsibility. It is about getting the best possible deal: the highest value of health care at the cheapest price.

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    And no, to the further silliness, it is not possible, even here, to just withdraw to the cave and live without societal interference. Some busybody always gets concerned that you are "okay" and enlists the state to come check on you, to "do something" about you. It's an easy thing for the state to do, interfere. They can always pull out the fact that you don't own the cave, or if you do, that you're not paying the proper taxes on it or maintaining it the way the folks down the hill have legislated you must.
    Come on ... All you need to do is not to enlist anywhere... As for these busybodies, I wish they had visited these old people regularly found dead in their appartments ...

    Where I agree is that as soon as you get into a social activity - be it a job or a club or this forum - you need to play by the rules.

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