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Thread: New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last

  1. #241
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Psssst: price inelasticity, information inequality, and one or two other well known market flaws. Try to stay with economic reality and you may sound a bit less unhinged.
    I'd just like to point out the futility of debating someone who can "sense" cancer, Alzheimers' and other diseases
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I'd just like to point out the futility of debating someone who can "sense" cancer, Alzheimers' and other diseases
    I hear that conservative women's bodies can reject legitimate cancer

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    You're damned right I'd expect to make a market out of that! I don't know much about cars, but I do know or I can sense when things don't seem right when my mechanic tells me something is wrong with my car. Maybe my dream world is based on the assumption that I start by assuming the responsibility for my own accounting. Whether it's my health or my car, I don't assume ever that what I'm being told is always correct. I take it upon myself to become informed about everything that isn't trivial concerning myself and my families education, health and money to name a few.
    Hmmm. The "college visit" for instance. That's where you go someplace and look at buildings. Without serious advanced education, training, and hopefully relevant experience, you are in no position to understand education, health care, or financial systems. Like everyone else, you struggle along the best you can and hope that things work out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Why, do you just take everyone's word on any matter that concerns you because you're not a doctor, or a car mechanic? Boy, are you really that niave or did you sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night?
    I'm just being a realist, and you are not.

  4. #244
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Congratulations, you are the exception more than the rule. The US is a big place, and quality of medical care varies drastically not only by location but also by doctor. However, you'll generally find that people in Germany wait much, much less long than the people in the US.
    Wait? You think I am the exception? I have friends who get seen equally as fast. Uncle had a torn ACL and was in surgery in 3 weeks (was mobile). My roommate broke his hand playing basketball, had the cast on same day, and was seeing the physical therapist same week. Grandfather had knee replacement surgery and it took him all of a month probably to actually get to the surgery, but he was 70 and had a host of other troubles (diabetes, etc). All of that was from different locations and it was all VERY speedy (minus recovery for the last...obviously takes a while).

    Now. Of course it is going to vary depending on location. The above were ALL from different locations by different doctors in the state of Florida. All of them were covered by insurance though (roommate was done through the school insurance I believe). It literally took me longer to get seen for a workers comp accident (feel at my job cleaning up stuff at the state and had to get a Tet shot and like 8 stitches), than it did for my knee surgery (well minus the 8 hours of sleep between the knee injury and actually calling for an appointment...I injured it doing Brazilian Jujitsu).

    The state was involved in the first one. I couldn't get seen till the workers comp stuff got through. It took like 4 hours for a simple stitch and stick that I probably could have had my father (a veterinarian) do FOR me in less time and for less money to the state. Heck. They got mad because I pulled the 8 stitches out with nail clippers when I didn't need them. I had to go BACK to urgent care to have a doctor go..."Looks good. Next patient."

    I guess what I am saying is that sure it varies by doctor, but the less bureaucratic BS in the way the better. You had an awful time at the VA. That isn't a shocker. What does get me though is your statement. How can we have a single health care problem in the United States if we have a variety of locations with different response times, quality of care, number of patients, numbers of doctors, and so on and so forth? Maybe the United States is a special when it comes to health care? Maybe we can't be compared to Germany because Germany has far fewer people, and is much smaller geographically, and even less diverse than we are? I think that is my primary bug with health care. I see a lot of talk about how we should be like Europe, and yet no consideration for the fact that we are nowhere near comparable to European nations in terms of complexity. I am sure that that each of their own nations have their own individual health care problems, but they are smaller in scale and easier to handle (well "easier"...but still complex and beyond my mind in terms of handling).
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  5. #245
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post

    How convenient for you. You get to make claims, and when questioned about their basis, you can just say I don't need no stinkin' basis.
    .
    Giving you props on the quote.

    Exactly where are you talking about though?


    Haven't cited a single UN number.
    Really? Are you aware that the numbers being used for comparison in the OP come from the WHO which is a part of the UN? Lol. Sorry. Lots of alphabet there. But seriously. If the numbers from the start are going to be talked about...they are using the WHO numbers as a big portion of their statistics (with some stuff from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development).

    What basis do you have for making THAT claim? It would seem to require the same sorts of insight that you have just admitted to not having with regard to other questions.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=unit...hrome&ie=UTF-8

    This is just on infant mortality. I know it was just a google search, but honestly just look up the different articles that are there. But just for some added flavor:

    WHO | An interview with Joy Lawn: Hidden deaths of the world?s newborn babies

    Notice this is from the WHO and it talks about the inaccuracy of infant mortality. Why? Kids fall through the cracks. Well. That is only in Africa right? Maybe Asia? Sadly. No. Countries define "live birth" differently. Try this on:

    Bernadine Healy, M.D.: Behind the baby count - US News and World Report

    I mean come on?

    An Ill-Conceived Health-Care Ranking - WSJ.com

    That is from the wall street Journal and talks about those "health rankings" that were so questionable. I think it is very important to note the bits about not taking into account dietary differences, and then the ones that do and how inconclusive they were.

    In short. Just on infant mortality can you REALLY tell me that the WHO/UN reporting methods are all that "reliable?" Numbers can be fudged. Not in some sinister plot (which if we are to get real...the WHO has a universal health coverage agenda...because that is their mission so I can't fault them for having it)...but because as we HAVE discussed and YOU are trying to ignore...reporting standards differ and so those differences fudge the numbers as a side effect. Do I need to continue on the inadequacies of data reports from the UN?

    Public hospitals and free clinics are found in inner cities far more often than in the middle of nowhere. You do not need much in the way of resources to access those.
    How many people have to go to the public hospitals and free clinics? So compare numbers of doctors to numbers of patients. Who do you think will have a higher work load? City or rural? Do you think that number of patients doesn't contribute to a decline in overall healthcare for a particular doctor/region? Just because there is "access" doesn't mean the quality is good. Rural can't be compared to city. Why? Differences. Variety of different abilities in different areas. So...

    Their poverty rates equal or exceed ours. Their population density is greater than ours.

    Why would 27 nations have any more bearing than 50 states? They have more than 500 million people to deal with. We have more than 300 million. They provide better overall health care at lower per capita costs. End of story
    Which country? AGAIN. I really shouldn't need to explain this but I will. We are talking about the rankings of the United States compared to 27 nations. That means the averages of 27 nations. 50 states is equivalent to the policies of 27 nations. The budgets and income are going to be different. Germany isn't trying to deal with French or Polish or Italian health care issues when they are brought to the table. United States Government politicians are going to have to deal with New York, Florida, Mississippi, California, and so on. If we are going to discuss national policies...you need to pick a nation. Last time I checked...Europe wasn't a nation.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  6. #246
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I'd just like to point out the futility of debating someone who can "sense" cancer, Alzheimers' and other diseases
    Why do you go to the doctor? Is it because you're feeling hunky dory..


    I swear, speaking with you hurts my brain, but in a good it hurts so good sort of way..



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  7. #247
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Hmmm. The "college visit" for instance. That's where you go someplace and look at buildings. Without serious advanced education, training, and hopefully relevant experience, you are in no position to understand education, health care, or financial systems. Like everyone else, you struggle along the best you can and hope that things work out.


    I'm just being a realist, and you are not.
    I have no direct formal education or training in education, healthcare, or financial systems, yet, I understand them very well, in fact I understand them so well that I am qualified to offer alternative solutions to them. And.... I have many times, including here in this thread.

    What is a realist exactly?


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

  8. #248
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I guess what I am saying is that sure it varies by doctor, but the less bureaucratic BS in the way the better. You had an awful time at the VA. That isn't a shocker. What does get me though is your statement. How can we have a single health care problem in the United States if we have a variety of locations with different response times, quality of care, number of patients, numbers of doctors, and so on and so forth? Maybe the United States is a special when it comes to health care? Maybe we can't be compared to Germany because Germany has far fewer people, and is much smaller geographically, and even less diverse than we are? I think that is my primary bug with health care. I see a lot of talk about how we should be like Europe, and yet no consideration for the fact that we are nowhere near comparable to European nations in terms of complexity. I am sure that that each of their own nations have their own individual health care problems, but they are smaller in scale and easier to handle (well "easier"...but still complex and beyond my mind in terms of handling).
    Inside the hospitals the system doesn't fundamentally work any different, it comes down to who is paying for it. In Germany your taxes are itemized, and if you want to opt out of the public health insurance you get that tax break, but can't ever come back. For those that do whant to pay, they can. Germany has 80 million people, and the US 300 million, there's nothing about a larger population that makes something like that impossible here. Especially when you consider the health care systems are taken care of at the state level in both places.

    Second, it wasn't the VA, it was just the Army, while still active duty, but even before I joined I had many bad experiences, and talking to other people throughout the years, the overall impression I've always gotten was that wait times can be very long. Even in this thread people have been talking about how long they've had to wait for several different services. I personally think we lack the real infrastructure. There's something fundamentally wrong with the system when it takes weeks to months to get a specialty appointment in a lot of places.

    I've made it quite clear in the past that I think obamacare is a horrible, horrible idea, but don't try to compare that with Germany's system and reject them both together, especially when you have absolutely no idea what their system is like.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  9. #249
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Inside the hospitals the system doesn't fundamentally work any different, it comes down to who is paying for it. In Germany your taxes are itemized, and if you want to opt out of the public health insurance you get that tax break, but can't ever come back. For those that do whant to pay, they can. Germany has 80 million people, and the US 300 million, there's nothing about a larger population that makes something like that impossible here. Especially when you consider the health care systems are taken care of at the state level in both places.

    Second, it wasn't the VA, it was just the Army, while still active duty, but even before I joined I had many bad experiences, and talking to other people throughout the years, the overall impression I've always gotten was that wait times can be very long. Even in this thread people have been talking about how long they've had to wait for several different services. I personally think we lack the real infrastructure. There's something fundamentally wrong with the system when it takes weeks to months to get a specialty appointment in a lot of places.

    I've made it quite clear in the past that I think obamacare is a horrible, horrible idea, but don't try to compare that with Germany's system and reject them both together, especially when you have absolutely no idea what their system is like.

    A single payer plan was the president's preferred upgrade. What we got instead was Congresscare, devised by the conservative Heritage Foundation as alternative to a single payer plan. Being the dagblasted pragmatist that he is, he went along with the Congresscare plan as way to provide health care insurance to 50 million Americans that couldn't afford it, and paid for it by cutting fraud and waste in the medicare program. Its a baby step up from what we had before, but we will still need to upgrade to a single payer system at some point to actually reduce the cost of health care in this country.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #250
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    A single payer plan was the president's preferred upgrade. What we got instead was Congresscare, devised by the conservative Heritage Foundation as alternative to a single payer plan. Being the dagblasted pragmatist that he is, he went along with the Congresscare plan as way to provide health care insurance to 50 million Americans that couldn't afford it, and paid for it by cutting fraud and waste in the medicare program. Its a baby step up from what we had before, but we will still need to upgrade to a single payer system at some point to actually reduce the cost of health care in this country.
    Germany is a multipayer system, so even more things that set it apart.

    Obamacare didn't actually do anything to lower the costs of healthcare for the average citizen. In fact, most people's health care costs have risen. There's good reason why not too many big pharma and medical lobbies fought it, it's absolutely great for their business to take massive taxpayer funding.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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