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Thread: New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last

  1. #121
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    Catawba's Avatar
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    That's nice. Now what do you have for those of us that do not see COST as the main concern?
    Why would you be opposed to better outcomes at lower costs?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #122
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Actually, to some degree I am into mystical blood and soil, as you refer to it.
    Yeah, I could tell. Conservatism is irrational and discredited.

    Let's see, what branches of arms were privately owned in 1787..... Artillery, Cavalry (which would be armor today), Naval, and Infantry, along with some Engineering. So far as I'm concerned anything that falls within those branches of the military is perfectly acceptable for private ownership.
    So? Got any other non sequiturs?

    The difference here is that I'm taking the position that the US Constitution cannot be changed without amendment, whereas you simply believe that it can be interpreted differently because you want it to read a certain way.
    Differently from what? Hundreds of legislators passed the Constitution and the amendments. Their "intent" is legislative intent, but the problem for originalists is (as any scholar knows), legislators often disagree on the meaning of the laws they vote for. So which dead legislator are you channeling?

    Channeling dead legislators is silly. We have to determine what the constitution means to us. Even using originalism is a form of interpretation by us. There is no getting out of this -- we're the ones who interpretate the Constitution, not dead people. Deal with it.

    Nope. Regardless of, and totally separate from, whether Health Care is a Right or a Privilege; we require certain things of parents. IF one were to assume your viewpoint then I would suggest that YES, it would be perfectly fine for the parents to ignore the medical needs of the child. I say this as the uncle of 4 children; none of whom have gotten the full spectrum of "suggested" immunizations or vaccines that their doctor's recommended.
    If children don't have a right to health care, you can't hold parents criminally liable for not giving them health care, something you claim none of us (but the rich) have a right to. So parents can let sick children die with impunity.

    One more lunacy from the blood and soil right.

  3. #123
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Differently from what? Hundreds of legislators passed the Constitution and the amendments. Their "intent" is legislative intent, but the problem for originalists is (as any scholar knows), legislators often disagree on the meaning of the laws they vote for. So which dead legislator are you channeling?
    How about the ones whose names are on the bottom of the ORIGINAL document.

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Channeling dead legislators is silly. We have to determine what the constitution means to us. Even using originalism is a form of interpretation by us. There is no getting out of this -- we're the ones who interpretate the Constitution, not dead people. Deal with it.
    Sorry, but that's not the way I see it and never will be the way I see it. You know what the Constitution means to me at this point?.... It's a piece of used toilet paper. That's what we've turned it into over the last 150 years. How's that sit with you?

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    If children don't have a right to health care, you can't hold parents criminally liable for not giving them health care, something you claim none of us (but the rich) have a right to. So parents can let sick children die with impunity.
    NOBODY has a right to health care. The rich have an easier time affording the privilege of health care but nobody has a right to it.

  4. #124
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Why would you be opposed to better outcomes at lower costs?
    Because conservative don't like working Americans. Seriously they despise everybody but the rich.

  5. #125
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    This is incorrect in two ways:

    Firstly, defense is not a consumer good or service, as it is not consumed when it is received. It is a public good because it is not. While governments are usually better at breaking things than they are at making or disbursing them, defense does not represent a socialist project for the simple enough reason that it does not represent government ownership or control of the means of production.

    Secondly, defense, like most the rest of our government, is also fairly famously inefficient, dollar-for-dollar.
    Straw man. No one called defense a consumer good or service

    It was called a "consumer", and that's what it is
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #126
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I agree. This is a ranking of health, not of the health care system. Our health is bad due to decisions we make - we eat a lot of processed foods, we smoke, we eat less fish, we drive a lot and walk less, we have more guns.
    This is certainly an issue, but hardly the only one. Our system is pretty lousy. It costs too much, devotes too much energy towards profit over care, and does not include nearly enough preventative or preliminary care. Not to mention the over emphasis on pharmacology. This is a healthcare system that refuses to take a stance on homeopathic "medicine" and inform the populace that it does nothing and they should stop paying charlatans for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    They should have thought of that years ago when the employer based system was set up complete with tax breaks for companies that provided it. The Govt. should have taken over then instead but it was "Communism" and the sky would fall so this is what we got stuck with.
    So let's do it now before the employer based system makes things even worse. The facts are obvious. The United States has amazing medical technology and some of the most effective medical treatments in the world. But we make the whole process so expensive that the people of this country end up paying exorbitant costs for worse care than the rest of the industrialized world. Let's stop making excuses and fix it. We have the evidence all around us that the for-profit healthcare system is inferior to a single payer one. We need to stop living in denial and join the rest of the world, so we can enjoy the benefits of a healthy population like they do.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    How about the ones whose names are on the bottom of the ORIGINAL document.
    How about them? Are you saying they all agreed to the meaning of the text? Did you ask? (in fact they had lots of recorded disagreements on the meaning of the text). And how about the legislators from eleven states that ratified -- there were hundreds? Are you going to channel them and take a vote.

    Originalism is silly.

    Sorry, but that's not the way I see it and never will be the way I see it. You know what the Constitution means to me at this point?.... It's a piece of used toilet paper. That's what we've turned it into over the last 150 years. How's that sit with you?
    Yeah, see that's why Americans reject conservatism. It's stupid. Meanwhile, we'll keep progressing and adapting this wonderful documents to our lives, as we have for 230 years. Conservatism has no future.

    NOBODY has a right to health care. The rich have an easier time affording the privilege of health care but nobody has a right to it.
    So it's OK for parents to let their sick children die. No rights violated, so no crime committed. Got it.

    [Psssst: like taking candy from a baby]

  8. #128
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    We have the most expensive system in the advanced world, with some of the worst health outcomes. That's because our for profit pay for service model is totally and completely maladapted for health care -- for well known reasons, the most obvious being lack of price elasticity.

    It's time for single payer. End of story. Our rationing of health care by income has failed.
    I think it has alot to do qwith the price of mal-practice insurance.

    Imaging, in your work, that one mistake can ruin your life, and that is after years and years of school.

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    I think it has alot to do qwith the price of mal-practice insurance.

    Imaging, in your work, that one mistake can ruin your life, and that is after years and years of school.
    No, the facts don't support this claim. Every study made has shown that malpractice insurance/lawsuits adds a de minimus amount to health care inflation, less than 1%.

    Morever most malpractice suits are brought against a small group of physicians, who keep causing harm, but who remain in practice because the AMA has trouble policing itself. Something like 5% of doctors are responsible for about 90% of malpractice claims. If the AMA would do a better job weeding out bad doctors, we wouldn't have this problem.

  10. #130
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Why would you be opposed to better outcomes at lower costs?
    I can think of two answers to your question:

    1) we might not believe, in the system you're proposing, that the result will be either better outcome or lower costs.
    2) we might not be willing to sacrifice the last shreds of our liberty for even more security.
    Last edited by clownboy; 01-14-13 at 06:25 PM.

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