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Thread: New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last

  1. #111
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    You do realize that the US Constitution (via the Second Amendment), and the vast majority of State Constitutions here in the United States specifically protect the RIGHT of the citizens to Keep and Bear Arms, correct?
    I realize that no right is absolute in our jurisprudence. That's just a rightwing fiction you have read on too many tea bagger websites.



    You do also realize that no such allowance is made in any of these documents (so far as I am aware) for healthcare, correct?
    BUZZZ!

    You lose. The general welfare clause obviously includes health care. And the 9th amendment incorporates the common law right to life, which also includes health care.

    Are you saying that Americans don't have the right to life?

  2. #112
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    BUZZZ!

    You lose. The general welfare clause obviously includes health care. And the 9th amendment incorporates the common law right to life, which also includes health care.
    Oh, I'm sorry. I had expected you were intelligent enough to comprehend that the "general welfare" clause deals with the welfare of the NATION, not of the individual citizens; just as the "common defense" clause does. The right to LIFE is not the same as the right to Health or to Health Care.

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Are you saying that Americans don't have the right to life?
    Life, yes. Health and/or Health Care, NO.

  3. #113
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Oh, I'm sorry. I had expected you were intelligent enough to comprehend that the "general welfare" clause deals with the welfare of the NATION, not of the individual citizens; just as the "common defense" clause does. The right to LIFE is not the same as the right to Health or to Health Care.]
    Same thing.



    Life, yes. Health and/or Health Care, NO.
    So you have the right to life but not to keep it going!

    You have to love tea party logic!

    Saying that people who are sick should die means they don't have the right to life. Here we go again, with bizarro conservative double speak.

    Let me get this straight, if a parent doesn't take care of a sick kid and the kid dies, that's OK with you, since kids don't have a right to health care. Is that the new conservative bizarro argument?
    Last edited by head of joaquin; 01-14-13 at 03:16 PM.

  4. #114
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
    I don't agree with you: I feel concerned about people with obesity problems. Especially if they start having mobility or other problems ...

    In fact, I feel concern for people in general. Their well being is my well being to some extent. I live in a society, not next to it.

    Concern for the well being of others is the fondation of society. Concern for your children, concern for your parents, concern for your family, concern for your neighboors, concern for the old lady who lives all alone on the other side of the street etc. Concern for your fellow citizens. Concern for sick people. And from a certain stadium, obesity is a sickness or causes other sicknesses: heart diseases, cholesterol, problems with the back or the knees, or both, uterus bleeding etc.

    Charities and insurances are based on this feeling of concern for others. In charities, resources are pooled together in order to fund research in a certain area - Can be cancer or any other deadly illness. If you fund a charity fighting heart deceases, you'll support programs teaching people how to lower the risk of heart disease including programs fighting obesity.... In insurances, resources are also pooled together to pay for the very high costs of particular illnesses. The less people will get ill, the more resources the insurances will have. It des not matter whether it's a private or a public insurance: they all work according to the same principles.

    You can of course live like a bear in your cavern but most people don't
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  5. #115
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Same thing.
    No, no the same thing, but I'm beginning to see that I was probably grossly over-estimating your common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    So you have the right to life but not to keep it going! Saying that people who are sick should die means they don't have the right to life.
    No. It means that there is no specified right to medical care. Medical care has always been and should always be something for which individuals pay, as they are capable of. Therefore, those individuals who have made bad life decisions and are not capable of paying for advanced care don't get advanced care. It's that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Let me get this straight, if a parent doesn't take care of a sick kid and the kid dies, that's OK with you, since kids don't have a right to health care.
    It would be up to the local and state governments to determine whether or not the parents had abused their powers and/or whether they were negligent in fulfilling their obligations as the guardians of the child.

    As to whether I'm okay with it or not, my opinion on that topic is clouded too greatly by my own personal experiences and beliefs on what has happened to me over the course of my life, for me to make any sort of unbiased commentary on the topic.

  6. #116
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    No, no the same thing, but I'm beginning to see that I was probably grossly over-estimating your common sense.
    Welfare for the nation means welfare for people. You're not into mystical blood and soil, are you?

    NEXT!

    No. It means that there is no specified right to medical care. Medical care has always been and should always be something for which individuals pay, as they are capable of. Therefore, those individuals who have made bad life decisions and are not capable of paying for advanced care don't get advanced care. It's that simple.
    There is no specific right to own a semiautomatic either, since they didn't exist when the 2nd Amendment was passed. You can't have your gun logic and eat it too. General welfare meant one thing in 1787, and now it means something else -- like health care!

    It would be up to the local and state governments to determine whether or not the parents had abused their powers and/or whether they were negligent in fulfilling their obligations as the guardians of the child.

    As to whether I'm okay with it or not, my opinion on that topic is clouded too greatly by my own personal experiences and beliefs on what has happened to me over the course of my life, for me to make any sort of unbiased commentary on the topic.
    Backtracking I see.

    If people don't have a right to health care, then children don't. If children don't, then parents don't have to give it to them. Therefore, it's OK for a parent to let a sick child die. Any criminal law to the contrary would be unconstitutional.

    That's how conservative "logic" works.

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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    That's the sort of plan we should all have, insurance rather than pre paid medical. Costs would go down dramatically.

    As it is though, people with lifestyle illnesses still cost the rest of us as costs are averaged out for a group.
    I can relate to that. Problem is how do you get those costs down? By telling someone how to live and more importantantly attempting to force them to live the way you say is NOT something I wish to be a part of. It leads down a road we shouldnt be going down.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

  8. #118
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Welfare for the nation means welfare for people. You're not into mystical blood and soil, are you?
    Actually, to some degree I am into mystical blood and soil, as you refer to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    There is no specific right to own a semiautomatic either, since they didn't exist when the 2nd Amendment was passed. You can't have your gun logic and eat it too. General welfare meant one thing in 1787, and now it means something else -- like health care!
    Let's see, what branches of arms were privately owned in 1787..... Artillery, Cavalry (which would be armor today), Naval, and Infantry, along with some Engineering. So far as I'm concerned anything that falls within those branches of the military is perfectly acceptable for private ownership.

    The difference here is that I'm taking the position that the US Constitution cannot be changed without amendment, whereas you simply believe that it can be interpreted differently because you want it to read a certain way.

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    If people don't have a right to health care, then children don't. If children don't, then parents don't have to give it to them. Therefore, it's OK for a parent to let a sick child die. Any criminal law to the contrary would be unconstitutional.
    Nope. Regardless of, and totally separate from, whether Health Care is a Right or a Privilege; we require certain things of parents. IF one were to assume your viewpoint then I would suggest that YES, it would be perfectly fine for the parents to ignore the medical needs of the child. I say this as the uncle of 4 children; none of whom have gotten the full spectrum of "suggested" immunizations or vaccines that their doctor's recommended.

  9. #119
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    I love how conservatives are constantly having to deny statistical and scientific reality to support their delusions.
    Just as one of their own presidential candidates pointed out in the campaign:

    “The minute that the Republican Party becomes the party – the anti-science party, we have a huge problem."

    Huntsman: GOP can't become 'anti-science' party - POLITICO Live - POLITICO.com


    The facts are there that show single payer systems cut health care costs for all those that actually look:

    Single Payer System Cost? | Physicians for a National Health Program
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #120
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    Re: We're Number......LAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The facts are there that show single payer systems cut health care costs for all those that actually look:
    That's nice. Now what do you have for those of us that do not see COST as the main concern?

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