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Thread: AIG: Thank You America, But We May Sue You

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    Re: AIG: Thank You America, But We May Sue You

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    The government can force a sale. It is called imminent domain.
    Which is no where to be found in the constitution. You can look if you want.

    The government did not decree that GM sell stocks to Uncle Sam or go bankrupt. Market forces and dunderheaded management mistakes did that.
    The government made it part of the deal and therefore it is their actions that made it so.

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    Re: AIG: Thank You America, But We May Sue You

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Yes. Without a choice to accept their compensation they are just getting whatever they desire from me by throwing cash in my direction regardless if I want to sell or not.
    It was not a sale of the stock, that is not how bankruptcy works. The old shares become worthless because there is no net value to what they hold. Those shares were NOT sold to the government. A new entity was created (in which the US Fed government was a part [temporary] investor) which bought assets from the old GM as a matter of settling accounts of the old GM with its creditors [to any extent they could].

    If you have a problem with seizure of property to pay debts owed I suggest you lay off of whatever intoxicant is doing that damage to you.
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-09-13 at 12:38 PM.

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    Re: AIG: Thank You America, But We May Sue You

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Which is no where to be found in the constitution. You can look if you want.
    Not that it pertains to this scenario but yes it is there.
    …nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
    Right there at the end of the 5th amendment.

    I am not a big fan of its use. It should be used quite sparingly and have a high bar to be met for doing so, which IMO is the natural outcome of taking the whole of the Constitution into equal consideration. But the provision that private property can be taken is very clearly implicit in directions given in that phrase.
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-09-13 at 12:41 PM.

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    Re: AIG: Thank You America, But We May Sue You

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Not that it pertains to this scenario but yes it is there.

    Right there at the end of the 5th amendment.

    I am not a big fan of its use. It should be used quite sparingly and have a high bar to be met for doing so, which IMO is the natural outcome of taking the whole of the Constitution into equal consideration. But the provision that private property can be taken is very clearly implicit in directions given in that phrase.
    It never says the sale can be forced on the seller nor does it suggest that the government has domain on anything. It just says they must offer up compensation for the sale. Unless I somehow forgot the meaning of compulsory, which I didn't, they have no authority to act in such a fashion.

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    Re: AIG: Thank You America, But We May Sue You

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    It never says the sale can be forced on the seller nor does it suggest that the government has domain on anything. It just says they must offer up compensation for the sale. Unless I somehow forgot the meaning of compulsory, which I didn't, they have no authority to act in such a fashion.
    Ummm... they did do that, didn't they?
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    Re: AIG: Thank You America, But We May Sue You

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    My argument is not dependent on the value of the stock, but instead the existence of the stock being taken by the government. I'm sorry, but the government did not have the authority to take the stock, period.

    here is the scenario as i understand it
    AIG was underwater. derivatives were insured by AIG in huge amounts ... think Trillions
    but AIG was without the cash to cover its extensive insured derivative exposure, internationally

    AIG's failure would have been the linchpin that allowed the world economy as we know it, to collapse

    to avoid that, our government provided the MASSIVE infusion of capital AIG required to remain afloat
    but as a lender, the government prudently imposed conditions on AIG before providing the essential capital required. among those requirements was a taxpayer ownership interest of 80% of the company. also required was the sale of assets to mitigate the amounts required from the taxpayer monies

    now notice, AIG could have refused to accept the money and the conditions which were attached to it
    but it did not
    and AIG survived, where it would have been a valueless pile of rubble but for that government intervention

    which is why any legal action against its lender, the USA, which preserved the company as a viable concern, should be found absurd
    there is NO fifth amendment violation to be found. the government took nothing ... other than AIG's acceptance of the terms of its loan
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    Re: AIG: Thank You America, But We May Sue You

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    It never says the sale can be forced on the seller nor does it suggest that the government has domain on anything. It just says they must offer up compensation for the sale. Unless I somehow forgot the meaning of compulsory, which I didn't, they have no authority to act in such a fashion.
    Yes it does grant the power of what is effectively a “forced sale”. In the process of enumerating the requirement for the action it implies that action is permissible. Otherwise why state that requirement at all?

    The use of “take” rather than something like “receive” or “purchase” very clearly denotes a unilateral, forcible action [on the government’s part].

    Of course if you made even a modicum of effort to look into this you will find that while Jefferson had different ideas about private property ownership, Madison won the day with this compromise. Yes, a compromise. Unreimbursed seizures took place in the colonies prior to this and yes it does give a nod to Jefferson’s ideal of allodial ownership, but it was very purposely designed as neither of those.

    The phrase “eminent domain” is merely the common name used for seizures. So you can stop with the literal word hunt for “domain”.
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-09-13 at 01:09 PM.

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    Re: AIG: Thank You America, But We May Sue You

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Yes it does grant the power of what is effectively a “forced sale”. In the process of enumerating the requirement for the action it implies that action is permissible. Otherwise why state that requirement at all?

    The use of “take” rather than something like “receive” or “purchase” very clearly denotes a unilateral, forcible action [on the government’s part].
    That is what the SC says alright except they like to add that the compensation has to be of market value. I'm not sure where they are getting that though. If the argument is the government can take whatever they want as long as they offer compensation then they could offer anything they wanted at any amount they pleased.

    Of course if you made even a modicum of effort to look into this you will find that while Jefferson had different ideas about private property ownership, Madison won the day with this compromise. Yes, a compromise. Unreimbursed seizures took place in the colonies prior to this and yes it does give a nod to Jefferson’s ideal of allodial ownership, but it was very purposely designed as neither of those.
    I know all about Jefferson, thanks.
    Last edited by Henrin; 01-09-13 at 02:04 PM.

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    Re: AIG: Thank You America, But We May Sue You

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    That is what the SC says alright except they like to add that the compensation has to be of market value. I’m not sure where they are getting that though.
    “…without just compensation.”

    What, you thought the word ‘just’ had its other meaning there?
    If the argument is the government can take whatever they want as long as they offer compensation then they could offer anything they wanted at any amount they pleased.
    No. I already covered that in a prior post. When you consider the balance of other parts of the Constitution (and Declaration of Independence), there are very clearly limitations not all enumerated within that paragraph. For example the right to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness clearly interacts with this.
    I know all about Jefferson, thanks.
    1) I seriously doubt it.
    2) You might want to consider branching out as the founding and forming of this country was not a one-man operation, and certainly did not end before Jefferson’s time did.

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    Re: AIG: Thank You America, But We May Sue You

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight
    …without just compensation.”

    What, you thought the word ‘just’ had its other meaning there?
    There is no reason to expect that market value or any other amount make a difference at all. Its all just opinion on what is "just" compensation.

    I already covered that in a prior post. When you consider the balance of other parts of the Constitution (and Declaration of Independence), there are very clearly limitations not all enumerated within that paragraph. For example the right to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness clearly interacts with this.
    How is that even possible? The very interpretation doesn't hold up to it.

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