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Thread: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    That is what the OP is all about. Removal of an existing path to citizenship, a position one entirely wrapped up in your “ideal” comment as your “ideal” comment was meant to explain/justify/support the change.
    No the ideal comment was about removing all citizenship and making citizenship earned through things like military service. Which I disagreed with. I said that newborns should be citizens so long as their parents are.

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    The Civil Rights Act of 1866 had just granted citizenship to all persons born in the United States, if they were not subject to a foreign power.
    If someone retains citizenship to their original country, does this exempt them since they would be still subject to a foreign power?

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Well there-in lies one of the problems, you entirely misunderstood my question and answered a different one.

    Your actual answer to my question would be another, saddening problem. But I guess we already got to that place earlier in the thread, and you are just another data point that this is really about enacting a legally entrenched, hereditary class system. Which puts you at odds with a lot more than the 14th Amendment.
    Well feel free to state a new argument and provide examples. I have no clue what your problem is now.

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    the 3/5ths clause only applied to slaves, not all Blacks and had nothing to do with citizenship.
    Actually the constitution never mentions slavery in that compromise clause and in effective reality freeman status for blacks wasn't recognised in all the proto-states/colonies.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    I'd have to see evidence for that since it would have violated the Dred Scott decision. Under the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and then protected by the 14th Ammendment. Civil Rights Act of 1866:
    14th Ammendment
    Civil War black soldiers were eager to enlist in the Union Army. They were anxious to join the fight against slavery and they believed that military service would allow them to prove their right to equality.

    Celebrated abolitionist Frederick Douglass was a strong advocate of allowing black men to fight, believing that this would prove their right to citizenship and the vote. Two of Douglass's sons served in the Union army. John Brown was another abolitionist who strongly believed that black were capabable and willing to fight for their freedom if given the chance.

    ...

    A Union militia act allowed enrollment of blacks early in 1862 and the Emancipation Proclamation permitted blacks to enlist in the military. This began African American military history. However, it was thought that African Americans would be used as military laborers, rather than fighters. For this reason, black soldiers were originally paid a laborer’s wage ($10 a month) rather than the wage paid to white soldiers ($13 a month). In 1864, after much opposition, Congress passed a bill allowing retroactive equal pay for Civil War black soldiers, but this act allowed for equalization only from January 1864.

    Source
    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    So they were made citizens under the concept of birthright citizenship.
    No, they were made citizens by act of congress as you have shown. However you do have a point about the 14th which was the ratified to roll up the issue you mention, as well as a few others to clean up after the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    So if Birthright Citizenship had NOT been enacted, then no person of African Descent would have been made a citizen, and then their children would not have been, etc.
    That's not so. Even IF the 14th weren't ratified, the ones who served or who had freemen status were considered to have citizenship. And what of the women in your scenerio? If all blacks, all people residing within the US at the time were given citizenship - why couldn't they vote? Wouldn't the 14th have over-ridden any constitutional bar to that?

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    If someone retains citizenship to their original country, does this exempt them since they would be still subject to a foreign power?
    Since we're talking about children born on US soil, the US is their original country. But in any case, the 14th ammendment trumps the CRA of 1866 and the language in the 14th is "subject to the jurisdiction [of the United States]" which basically only excludes children of diplomats. At the time it also included Indians born on a Reservation.

    So a child born of non-citizen parents who gains citizenship at birth from their citizenship, is still a citizen of the US. The US does not officially recognize dual citizenship.
    Therefore, since the world has still/Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure/Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would,/And train for ill and not for good.

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    If someone retains citizenship to their original country, does this exempt them since they would be still subject to a foreign power?
    Interesting question and probably why, for the most part, the US did not officially recognise dual citizenship.

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Interesting question and probably why, for the most part, the US did not officially recognise dual citizenship.
    They do not recognize it but in practice it still happens. Part of the process of being naturalized is renouncing any prior citizenship(s). However not all countries recognize renouncement. A classic example is Britain. A British citizen that emigrates to the US and becomes a citizen will be, in fact, a dual citizen enough though the US will not acknowledge it.

    As a side note, I believe because his father was a citizen of the Commonwealth the President could lay claim to that citizenship if he desired. It is not going to happen but theoretically he could. He certainly is not the first President in such a position.
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-11-13 at 03:46 PM.

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    I am unclear why it is actually a problem? Seriously, a couple of people that have put in collectively over 4 decades of effort, and have a number of years ahead of them yet. Buddha on a bike, what exactly do you want out of people to become citizens?
    How about to follow the law? Is that really too much to ask?
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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    Being born is bad behavior????? The parents receive no reward. Unless you seriously consider waiting 21 years to be legally admitted a "reward." How is that more of a reward than a 21 year old marrying a US citizen gaining citizenship, and then bringing his/her parents over?

    Again...21 years delay is not really a reward in my book.
    Its a reward in my book.
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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    Since we're talking about children born on US soil, the US is their original country. But in any case, the 14th ammendment trumps the CRA of 1866 and the language in the 14th is "subject to the jurisdiction [of the United States]" which basically only excludes children of diplomats. At the time it also included Indians born on a Reservation.

    So a child born of non-citizen parents who gains citizenship at birth from their citizenship, is still a citizen of the US. The US does not officially recognize dual citizenship.
    When the 14th was originally written it also was meant to include illegals. But SCOTUS did not follow the spirit of the law. Only the letter.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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