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Thread: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

  1. #101
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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Others have made it quite clear that it is about entrenching intergenerational inherited social class. In the face of founding and since then widening acceptance of individual merit and rights, certainly innocence of the child in spite of his parents transgressions.
    "Intergenerational inherited social class". My what big words you use! Only one problem. I fully welcome and want the immigration process. So long as people come here legally I have absolutely no problem with them.

    And how is it punishing the child for the parents transgressions? Is it "punishment" to withhold citizenship? How? They have the citizenship of thier parents country and can go back there at any time so its not like they are countryless (if thats even a word). With your kind of arguement then the whole world should just be deemed citizens of the US. Sorry but we do not have the resources or space to house and take care of the entire world.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The fact that the 14th Amendment passed shows that there was enough approval for it to be accepted. Those that debated things other than what the writer intended mean nothing due to that approval to pass the 14th.
    What was accepted were the words. What they mean, under any number of circumstances, is even after that remains something of an open question. Otherwise we would not have judges interpreting law when we could just dial up and ask the still living legislators and Presidents.
    Which is why they implemented an amendment process.
    Not just that, also the above. For both philosophical and practical reasons.
    Ignoring the spirit of the law and just going by the letter of the law can be dangerous. Take a look at the Sex Registry. Its intent was to put those that were truely dangerous rapists in the spotlight. But in reality due to people just going by the letter of the law we have people on it that just simply pissed behind a tree and 18 year olds that had consensual sex with thier 17 and 1 day shy of 18 year old partners.
    There is indeed a danger in that, which is why we have judges and they have some leeway for examination and consideration of ’spirit’. Whether or not a given judge chooses to exercise this leeway. *shrug* Sometimes they do, sometimes they [arguably] do not.

    But to claim that the v Wong Kim Ark decision is only about letter drastically misses its point, it is also about ‘spirit’. Indeed spirit and letter are not entirely exclusive from each other.
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-11-13 at 05:30 PM.

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    What was accepted were the words. What they mean, under any number of circumstances, is even after that remains something of an open question. Otherwise we would not have judges interpreting law when we could just dial up and ask the still living legislators and Presidents.
    What was accepted were not just the words but also the authors interpretation of those words. Otherwise people would have demanded that the wording of it be changed. As it is people ignore parts of it to push their agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    There is indeed a danger in that, which is why we have judges and they have some leeway for examination and consideration of ’spirit’. Whether or not a given judge chooses to exercise this leeway. *shrug* Sometimes they do, sometimes they [arguably] do not.
    We also have the authors words of any given law. Which the judges are suppose to examine. And no, they are not suppose to have any leeway in how they interpret a law. The only leeway that they have is that which people (particularly those with agendas) give them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    But to claim that the v Wong Kim Ark decision is only about letter drastically misses its point, it is also about ‘spirit’. Indeed spirit and letter are not entirely exclusive from each other.
    People always have to bring up that case. Point of fact is that Wong Kim's parents were legal citizens. As such Wong Kim inherited birth right citizenship. We're talking about people that came here illegally, were not citizens and had a baby that was granted citizenship through a wrong interpretation of the 14th amendment. In point of fact there has been no case that SCOTUS has dealt with that specifically talked about parents offspring when those parents were in the country illegally and were NOT citizens.
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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    People always have to bring up that case. Point of fact is that Wong Kim's parents were legal citizens.
    Holy crap. No they were not citizens of the US, they were aliens. Further the ruling sets the test for that aspect of the 14th so it is entirely applicable. There has been some contention voiced about parents status as “illegal aliens” resulting in a different outcome. However that has never been challenged (a pretty good sign it is not seriously in question) and suffers from, among other things, the problem of how can they be illegal under US law without being subject to US laws.

    If you are that turned around it is pretty clear any discussion with you on this is a dead end…

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Another example of the rightwing extremists throwing one of their principles (ie Original Intent) under the bus in order to pursue their hateful beliefs
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #106
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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Holy crap. No they were not citizens of the US, they were aliens. Further the ruling sets the test for that aspect of the 14th so it is entirely applicable. There has been some contention voiced about parents status as “illegal aliens” resulting in a different outcome. However that has never been challenged (a pretty good sign it is not seriously in question) and suffers from, among other things, the problem of how can they be illegal under US law without being subject to US laws.

    If you are that turned around it is pretty clear any discussion with you on this is a dead end…
    I'm sorry, you're right, I misspoke. They were not citizens. But they were in the US legally. Still a far cry from illegal aliens.

    The "jurisdiction of the US laws" was talking about which country they were primarily subject to. An illegal from Ireland is primarily subject to Irelands laws. Why do you think that our law enforcement is required by law to inform illegal aliens of their right to counsel by a representitive from an embassy of thier home country? Because they are primarily subject to their home country. I can't remember the case but this one illegal got let go because the LEO's failed to inform him of that right, despite telling him his miranda rights and that he had a right to an attorney. He still got deported of course, but the rest of the charges against him were dropped.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Another example of the rightwing extremists throwing one of their principles (ie Original Intent) under the bus in order to pursue their hateful beliefs
    Sorry but original intent is exactly what we are trying to get back.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Another freaky tea party pseudoproblem that just shows how out of step and irrelevant the GOP has become.

    Nobody cares about this but a few trailer park Alabama. Meanwhile the real issues of the country are being addressed by progressives and Democrats, and America is leaving Republicans in the dustbin of history.

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Sorry but original intent is exactly what we are trying to get back.
    because the Framers included birthright citizenship unintentionally :crazy:
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #110
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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    because the Framers included birthright citizenship unintentionally :crazy:
    The original author never did include it for illegal aliens. Look it up if you don't believe me.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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