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Thread: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Actually the constitution never mentions slavery in that compromise clause and in effective reality freeman status for blacks wasn't recognised in all the proto-states/colonies.
    Well, let's look:
    Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.
    So we have 3 categories: Free Persons (including indentured servants), Indians not taxed (and the grammar implies that Indians who are taxed fall under "free Persons," and All other Persons. Who, besides slaves, are you proposing that "all other Persons" refers to? It doesn't say "slaves" but it can mean nothing else. Oh, I forgot, you're proposing some other category for Blacks who were not slaves but not recognized as free. I'm not aware of any such category. I downloaded a copy of the Census of 1820 and there were 3 basic categories: Free White, Slaves, and Free Colored. And of note: ALL states had listings for Free Colored.
    And looking at the 1860 Cenus, same thing.

    In any case it has NOTHING to do with citizenship.

    Your source for Black Civil War soldiers only states that " believing that this would prove their right to citizenship and the vote" but nowhere does it say any Black soldiers were actually granted citizenship.

    they were made citizens by act of congress as you have shown. However you do have a point about the 14th which was the ratified to roll up the issue you mention, as well as a few others to clean up after the war.
    ummm the act of congress made them citizens via birthright citizenship. The 14th just made it constitutionally protected from a new act of congress changing things. So my point remains...it was birthright citizenship and ONLY birthright citizenship that made Blacks citizens.

    not so. Even IF the 14th weren't ratified, the ones who served or who had freemen status were considered to have citizenship.
    Untrue. Right at the beginning of the Dred Scott Decison it states "A free negro of the African race, whose ancestors were brought to this country and sold as slaves, is not a "citizen" within the meaning of the Constitution of the United States." Can't get much plainer than that. Note that Immigration was restricted to Free White Persons.

    And what of the women in your scenerio? If all blacks, all people residing within the US at the time were given citizenship - why couldn't they vote? Wouldn't the 14th have over-ridden any constitutional bar to that?
    No, why would it? Citizenship has never automatically given the right to vote...certainly not in the Constitution. the 15th ammendment forbids denying the right to vote based on race, color or previous condition of servitude, the 19th forbids denying it based on sex, the 24th forbids denying the right to vote for Federal Offices due to failure to pay tax, and the 26th forbids denying it based on age (for those 18 and older). But there is nothing in the Constitution saying citizens have the right to vote...that's all state law. A state can quite constitutionally allow non-citizens the right to vote for President.
    Therefore, since the world has still/Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure/Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    How about to follow the law? Is that really too much to ask?
    How about we fix, and fix the damage of dumb, busted down laws. I know you find that too much to ask, because when we get right down to the sticky parts of it for you is not really about following laws or even really immigration or citizenship. Amiright?
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-11-13 at 04:41 PM.

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    When the 14th was originally written it also was meant to include illegals. But SCOTUS did not follow the spirit of the law. Only the letter.
    During the debates, both opinions were expressed. Some explicitily declared that children of non citizen parents would be citizens under the ammendment. So you can't say there was only one single intent when I can show multiple opposite views by those who enacted it.
    Therefore, since the world has still/Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure/Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would,/And train for ill and not for good.

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray410 View Post
    "We?" Next you're going to be talking about "Our" country. You know nothing of the American experience.

    What equivalence is there between the hard working, self reliant, Western European immigrants of 100 years ago and you 3rd world, welfare seeking, Obama worshiping illegals of today? America's former immigrants were culture and nation builders, you were imported here to destroy and steal.
    I want from being born to abject poverty to becoming a millionaire business man through hard work,education, perseverance and wise investments?
    Why don't you try to tell ME that I don't know anything about the American experiance.

    You seriously not suggesting that people like me whose ancestors were forced here on slaveships in the mid to late 1600's,and the descendants of Chinese and Japanese immigrants in the mid to late 1800's are "really" Americans.We also helped to build this country.

    Wow,you really are a racist.

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    During the debates, both opinions were expressed. Some explicitily declared that children of non citizen parents would be citizens under the ammendment. So you can't say there was only one single intent when I can show multiple opposite views by those who enacted it.
    It matters not what the debaters thought it should be. It matters what the writer thought it should be.
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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Whipsnade View Post
    Updated at 1:40 p.m. ET with a correction.

    WOW! this'l sure shore up the Hispanic vote for the midterms.



    <Republican Rep. Steve King of Iowa, a leading conservative voice on immigration issues, introduced a bill on Wednesday to end the practice of birthright citizenship.>

    <It's generally thought that the 14th Amendment provides a constitutional guarantee of citizenship for anyone born in the United States -- known as "birthright citizenship" -- but King told Hotsheet last year that he does not interpret the 14th Amendment that way.>

    <Meanwhile, holding Washington's feet to the fire on the issue, Republican state lawmakers from five states came to the capitol Wednesday to unveil their ownstate-driven plan to curtail birthright citizenship. The lawmakers said that legislation addressing the issue will be introduced in 14 states, though they expect it to be immediately challenged in court as unconstitutional.>


    Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship - Political Hotsheet - CBS News
    I support this.The intent of section 1 of the 14th amendment was to never grant citizenship to just anyone born on US soil.Which is why "and the subject to the jurisdiction thereof" part was added to section 1 of the 14th amendment.If it clearly meant anyone born in the US it wouldn't have the and subject to the jurisdiction thereof part.


    The 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution - Fourteenth Amendment - anchor babies and birthright citizenship - interpretations and misinterpretations - US Constitution
    Senator Jacob Howard clearly spelled out the intent of the 14th Amendment by stating:

    "Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country."
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    How about we fix, and fix the damage of dumb, busted down laws. I know you find that too much to ask, because when we get right down to the sticky parts of it for you is not really about following laws or even really immigration or citizenship. Amiright?
    Huh? Might want to give a few examples of those "damage of dumb, busted down laws".

    But yes, it is exactly about immigration and citizenship. What else would it be about?
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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It matters not what the debaters thought it should be. It matters what the writer thought it should be.
    Not the case at all. Without the approval of the intent the writers words are nothing. Further:

    "The question [w]hether one generation of men has a right to bind another. . . is a question of such consequences as not only to merit decision, but place also among the fundamental principles of every government. . . . I set out on this ground, which I suppose to be self-evident, ‘that the earth belongs in usufruct to the living’ . . ..” - T. Jefferson

    And he was not really alone in this, this is not the only example of a warning to not look back and read into and cling.
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-11-13 at 04:54 PM.

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Huh? Might want to give a few examples of those "damage of dumb, busted down laws".

    But yes, it is exactly about immigration and citizenship. What else would it be about?
    Others have made it quite clear that it is about entrenching intergenerational inherited social class. In the face of founding and since then widening acceptance of individual merit and rights, certainly innocence of the child in spite of his parents transgressions.

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    Re: Steve King Moves Forward on Bill to End Birthright Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Not the case at all. Without the approval of the intent the writers words are nothing. Further:
    The fact that the 14th Amendment passed shows that there was enough approval for it to be accepted. Those that debated things other than what the writer intended mean nothing due to that approval to pass the 14th.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    "The question [w]hether one generation of men has a right to bind another. . . is a question of such consequences as not only to merit decision, but place also among the fundamental principles of every government. . . . I set out on this ground, which I suppose to be self-evident, ‘that the earth belongs in usufruct to the living’ . . ..” - T. Jefferson
    Which is why we have an amendment process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    And he was not really alone in this, this is not the only example of a warning to not look back and read into and cling.
    Which is why they implemented an amendment process. Ignoring the spirit of the law and just going by the letter of the law can be dangerous. Take a look at the Sex Registry. Its intent was to put those that were truely dangerous rapists in the spotlight. But in reality due to people just going by the letter of the law we have people on it that just simply pissed behind a tree and 18 year olds that had consensual sex with thier 17 and 1 day shy of 18 year old partners on it.
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 01-11-13 at 05:11 PM.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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