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NRA's Newtown solution: Armed guards in schools

ChrisL said:
Do you feel nervous about being shot when you go into a bank with an armed security guard? How about the airport? High-end stores also sometimes hire armed security. There are armed people all around us already. You just don't know it. Same thing with at the schools. I don't see any logical arguments against it at all. Just ridiculous hyperbole. :lamo
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You cant see any logical arguments because you have zero knowledge about securing anything, I understand that :) and its ok
 
lpast said:
You cant see any logical arguments because you have zero knowledge about securing anything, I understand that :) and its ok
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How long does it take to train a security guard? I've known a few. It's not like it takes YEARS of training, so your argument is not logical. If you were really serious about protecting the children against events such as this, you would WANT there to be armed security there.

And what is YOUR idea?
 
ChrisL said:
How long does it take to train a security guard? I've known a few. It's not like it takes YEARS of training, so your argument is not logical. If you were really serious about protecting the children against events such as this, you would WANT there to be armed security there.

And what is YOUR idea?
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Chris you seem to be just looking for an argument for some reason...I suggest you go back through the thread and actually read my posts and you will find the answer to all your questions that I have already posted. If its that you just must be right, then ok I concede you are right :) <end>
 
lpast said:
Chris you seem to be just looking for an argument for some reason...I suggest you go back through the thread and actually read my posts and you will find the answer to all your questions that I have already posted. If its that you just must be right, then ok I concede you are right :) <end>
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Of course I will look over the thread, but why can't you just summarize your argument? I have, time and time and time again, because I feel like I am making a valid point and have common sense on my side.

For one thing, any kind of laws that are made to restrict or even ban weapons will not prevent incidents like this from happening, as they are usually carefully planned for weeks if not months in advance. People who have their minds set on doing this kind of thing are not going to let a little thing like a "law" stand in their way of causing pain, death and destruction. If you believe that any laws would deter these people, then you are only fooling yourself.
 
lpast said:
You cant see any logical arguments because you have zero knowledge about securing anything, I understand that :) and its ok
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her posts seem to be rather logical to me. she raises a good point. I have never worried about going into a facility with an armed guard because I do not plan on engaging in any behavior that would cause such a guard to attack me

now the chance of him going rogue is about 1/1000 the chance of a criminal engaging in a murderous assault on an unguarded facility
 
ChrisL said:
Of course I will look over the thread, but why can't you just summarize your argument? I have, time and time and time again, because I feel like I am making a valid point and have common sense on my side.

For one thing, any kind of laws that are made to restrict or even ban weapons will not prevent incidents like this from happening, as they are usually carefully planned for weeks if not months in advance. People who have their minds set on doing this kind of thing are not going to let a little thing like a "law" stand in their way of causing pain, death and destruction. If you believe that any laws would deter these people, then you are only fooling yourself.
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Oh come on Chris, a guy who is willing to commit 26 counts of capital murder and then kill himself is going to obey a gun law!!
 
TurtleDude said:
Oh come on Chris, a guy who is willing to commit 26 counts of capital murder and then kill himself is going to obey a gun law!!
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Of course, what was I thinking? That is such a logical argument! :lamo
 
ChrisL said:
Of course, what was I thinking? That is such a logical argument! :lamo
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yeah a guy who just shot his mother to death stolen her guns and has planned on killing a bunch of kids suddenly realizes

HEY I HAVE TO WAIT 5 days before i can take possession of the rifle I just killed my mom for and I then have to register it with the local police agency
 
TurtleDude said:
her posts seem to be rather logical to me. she raises a good point. I have never worried about going into a facility with an armed guard because I do not plan on engaging in any behavior that would cause such a guard to attack me

now the chance of him going rogue is about 1/1000 the chance of a criminal engaging in a murderous assault on an unguarded facility
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I guess if it such a problem with security people going rogue, we should really worry about the president too. He is surrounded by armed men 24/7 after all. :roll:
 
TurtleDude said:
yeah a guy who just shot his mother to death stolen her guns and has planned on killing a bunch of kids suddenly realizes

HEY I HAVE TO WAIT 5 days before i can take possession of the rifle I just killed my mom for and I then have to register it with the local police agency
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I know it! As if these people are logical or something. What a joke!
 
ChrisL said:
I guess if it such a problem with security people going rogue, we should really worry about the president too. He is surrounded by armed men 24/7 after all. :roll:
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yeah one of those secret service guys could go postal

I have a solution guards to guard the guards to guard the guards

damn my head hurts

better call it a night

good night sweetie, SYL
 
TurtleDude said:
yeah one of those secret service guys could go postal

I have a solution guards to guard the guards to guard the guards

damn my head hurts

better call it a night

good night sweetie, SYL
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Good night TD! :)
 
TurtleDude said:
her posts seem to be rather logical to me. she raises a good point. I have never worried about going into a facility with an armed guard because I do not plan on engaging in any behavior that would cause such a guard to attack me

now the chance of him going rogue is about 1/1000 the chance of a criminal engaging in a murderous assault on an unguarded facility
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Ok so your answer is the same as hers then to arm a few teachers instead ? I addressed why its not reasonable to arm a few teachers.
I also stated along with armed security you need security additions to the physcial plant, like cameras the first tenant of security is the ability to see. Along with any other physical changes necessary.
You state you dont worry about entering a facility with an armed guard...ok I buy that...so whats the alternative if armed trained security doesnt worry an attacker a few armed teachers in a classroom with 30plus 6 yrs will ? either that or do nothing and leave it like it is with no armed anything and we already know what that gets us right ?
We are faced with a dilemna of either do nothing and be damned or try something that will at the minimum help. School shooters are not going to disappear on thier own and to just allow them to keep walking in to schools unchallenged to me is out right criminal.
Im stating that arming a few teachers that are going to be in classrooms with a bunch of kids that they cant just leave is worthless. A teacher in a classroom cannot "SEE" anything cannot see anything before something happens to prevent it.
So either do nothing or do something that can possibly work...arming a few teachers wont.
 
lpast said:
Ok so your answer is the same as hers then to arm a few teachers instead ? I addressed why its not reasonable to arm a few teachers.
I also stated along with armed security you need security additions to the physcial plant, like cameras the first tenant of security is the ability to see. Along with any other physical changes necessary.
You state you dont worry about entering a facility with an armed guard...ok I buy that...so whats the alternative if armed trained security doesnt worry an attacker a few armed teachers in a classroom with 30plus 6 yrs will ? either that or do nothing and leave it like it is with no armed anything and we already know what that gets us right ?
We are faced with a dilemna of either do nothing and be damned or try something that will at the minimum help. School shooters are not going to disappear on thier own and to just allow them to keep walking in to schools unchallenged to me is out right criminal.
Im stating that arming a few teachers that are going to be in classrooms with a bunch of kids that they cant just leave is worthless. A teacher in a classroom cannot "SEE" anything cannot see anything before something happens to prevent it.
So either do nothing or do something that can possibly work...arming a few teachers wont.
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It doesn't matter if they "don't worry the attacker." That is irrelevant. The point is, when some madman tries entering the school as this guy did (by shooting out the windows), then there can be someone there to protect the children. THAT is the point.
 
ChrisL said:
It doesn't matter if they "don't worry the attacker." That is irrelevant. The point is, when some madman tries entering the school as this guy did (by shooting out the windows), then there can be someone there to protect the children. THAT is the point.
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The point you are MISSING is that a teacher with a gun in a classroom on the other side of the school will have no CLUE that the guy is inside the school and killing people until after he already has and the teacher finally hears the gunfire...at that point the teacher is WORTHLESS because he cant leave 30+ 6 yr olds by themselves knowing there is someone with a gun out there. Arming a few teachers is worthless chris...
You need security personel that are well trained, retired law enforcement, military. They need cameras to see all pertinet possible places of ingress..if someone does get in without them seeing and they hear gunfire after immediately dialing 911 they can move unhindered by a class full of kids and do what they can. There are no guarantees and ive said that more than once..and its not foolproof by any stretch...but what is the alternative? do what weve been doing which is NOTHING and continue the open door access to our kids, far easier access than we allow in courthouses and many other buildings..
 
lpast said:
Ok so your answer is the same as hers then to arm a few teachers instead ? I addressed why its not reasonable to arm a few teachers.
I also stated along with armed security you need security additions to the physcial plant, like cameras the first tenant of security is the ability to see. Along with any other physical changes necessary.
You state you dont worry about entering a facility with an armed guard...ok I buy that...so whats the alternative if armed trained security doesnt worry an attacker a few armed teachers in a classroom with 30plus 6 yrs will ? either that or do nothing and leave it like it is with no armed anything and we already know what that gets us right ?
We are faced with a dilemna of either do nothing and be damned or try something that will at the minimum help. School shooters are not going to disappear on thier own and to just allow them to keep walking in to schools unchallenged to me is out right criminal.
Im stating that arming a few teachers that are going to be in classrooms with a bunch of kids that they cant just leave is worthless. A teacher in a classroom cannot "SEE" anything cannot see anything before something happens to prevent it.
So either do nothing or do something that can possibly work...arming a few teachers wont.
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Armed personel won't work? You might want to call the White House and tell them that the 11 armed secret service agents they have gaurding Obama's kids is a waste of time, then.
 
apdst said:
Armed personel won't work? You might want to call the White House and tell them that the 11 armed secret service agents they have gaurding Obama's kids is a waste of time, then.
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You didnt read my post or any of them in the thread did you ? or you posted this response to the wrong post.
 
lpast said:
The point you are MISSING is that a teacher with a gun in a classroom on the other side of the school will have no CLUE that the guy is inside the school and killing people until after he already has and the teacher finally hears the gunfire...at that point the teacher is WORTHLESS because he cant leave 30+ 6 yr olds by themselves knowing there is someone with a gun out there. Arming a few teachers is worthless chris...
You need security personel that are well trained, retired law enforcement, military. They need cameras to see all pertinet possible places of ingress..if someone does get in without them seeing and they hear gunfire after immediately dialing 911 they can move unhindered by a class full of kids and do what they can. There are no guarantees and ive said that more than once..and its not foolproof by any stretch...but what is the alternative? do what weve been doing which is NOTHING and continue the open door access to our kids, far easier access than we allow in courthouses and many other buildings..
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Agreed. There needs to be designated personnel with biometric access to weaponry and the ability to leave their workspace.
 
apdst said:
Armed personel won't work? You might want to call the White House and tell them that the 11 armed secret service agents they have gaurding Obama's kids is a waste of time, then.
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Are you really comparing the most highly trained security force on the planet in one of the most secure buildings on the planet to schoolteachers in a building that turns into complete chaos every time a bell rings?
 
Deuce said:
Are you really comparing the most highly trained security force on the planet in one of the most secure buildings on the planet to schoolteachers in a building that turns into complete chaos every time a bell rings?
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1) active shooters almost never have any training

2) active shooters have-in at least 90% of past cases-folded up and died or killed themselves when confronted by any armed resistance

3) since the active shooter is the instigator of violence, chances are the active shooter will kill or maim at least one or two victims, however having armed response closer to the start of the violence has been proven to save lives in almost every case where there was an armed response

no solution is going to stop all active shooter casualties but armed staff members has the best chance of LIMITING innocents dying
 
TurtleDude said:
1) active shooters almost never have any training

2) active shooters have-in at least 90% of past cases-folded up and died or killed themselves when confronted by any armed resistance

3) since the active shooter is the instigator of violence, chances are the active shooter will kill or maim at least one or two victims, however having armed response closer to the start of the violence has been proven to save lives in almost every case where there was an armed response

no solution is going to stop all active shooter casualties but armed staff members has the best chance of LIMITING innocents dying
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I'm sure you have some statistics to back up those points.

Do you envision the teachers just having a holster on them at all times?
 
Deuce said:
I'm sure you have some statistics to back up those points.

Do you envision the teachers just having a holster on them at all times?
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I train with one of the leading authorities on Active shores. he as on several talk shows after Newton. His name is John Benner, you can google him. He made those comments on a show sunday nights 7-8 PM on WKRC 550 Cincinnati called "trigger time" hosted by a guy named Joe Barrett. the comments were made this last sunday and the week before


Trigger Time with Joe Barrett - Radio Talk Show on 55krc about guns, gun safety and gun rights.


yeah during the school day
 
Deuce said:
Are you really comparing the most highly trained security force on the planet in one of the most secure buildings on the planet to schoolteachers in a building that turns into complete chaos every time a bell rings?
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An armed teacher is not the solution to the problem. Rather, it is the first, desperate response to an immediate problem

At least... that teacher should be equipped to at least try
 
ric27 said:
An armed teacher is not the solution to the problem. Rather, it is the first, desperate response to an immediate problem

At least... that teacher should be equipped to at least try
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true, just as a tourniquet is the response to a grievous wound but the real solution is preventing a massive wound in the first place
 
Deuce said:
I'm sure you have some statistics to back up those points.

Do you envision the teachers just having a holster on them at all times?
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What makes a teacher any different at school then any other civilian anywhere else? Kids are at the malls, parks, theaters, restuarants, libraries, etc.

Would you object if that same teacher had a CCW and was carrying at KFC's, but put him/her in a classroom and suddenly they lose all possible competence.

Why?
 
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