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Thread: Sandy Hook: Beyond gun control, disease control

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    Re: Sandy Hook: Beyond gun control, disease control

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    Nobody's calling for a ban on anything, are they? Not, at least, in this thread. I'm certainly not. It is strange, though, that you'd associate a tax on a voluntary transaction which would have not been considered controversial at all in, say, 1890 or 1920 as tantamount to 'banning' something.

    A tax is not a ban. And a ban is not a tax. And never the twain shall meet.
    You said that a gunpowder tax was better than an assualt weapons ban, implying that was the choice being offered. I offer a third alternative - using general revenue, and explained that banning things in demand does not make them go away, it simply transfers their distribution to criminal gangs. You seem to want to transfer the cost (caring for, identifying or whaterver your plan is) of the mentally deficient onto only legal gun users, rather than simply using general revenue (aka borrowing).
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
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    Re: Sandy Hook: Beyond gun control, disease control

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You said that a tax was better than an assualt weapons ban, implying that was the choice being offered. I offer a third alternative - using general revenue, and explained that banning things in demand does not make them go away, it simply transfers their distribution to criminal gangs.
    "Using general revenue" is less libertarian than a selective, voluntary tax on a voluntary transaction. By far the largest part of our general revenue comes from income taxes. And raising income taxes indiscriminately on everyone in order to fight gun violence, when not everyone owns guns, is as morally wrong or worse than what you're accusing me of doing.

    Moreover, it's fiscally irresponsible. I doubt very seriously you actually desire expanding public mental health access, but those who do should take care when they decide to further burden the nation with debt, no matter the end they mean to achieve.

    You seem to want to transfer the cost (caring for, identifying or whaterver your plan is) of the mentally deficient onto only legal gun users, rather than simply using general revenue (aka borrowing).
    No, I want to transfer the cost of gun violence prevention onto those most likely to engage in gun violence - gun owners. And I think gun violence prevention, in conjunction with expanded mental health services, and in particular targeted treatment designed to prevent gun violence, is what's most pertinent here.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
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    Re: Sandy Hook: Beyond gun control, disease control

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    "Using general revenue" is less libertarian than a selective, voluntary tax on a voluntary transaction. By far the largest part of our general revenue comes from income taxes. And raising income taxes indiscriminately on everyone in order to fight gun violence, when not everyone owns guns, is as morally wrong or worse than what you're accusing me of doing.



    No, I want to transfer the cost of gun violence prevention onto those most likely to engage in gun violence - gun owners. And I think gun violence prevention, in conjunction with expanded mental health services, and in particular targeted treatment designed to prevent gun violence, is what's most pertinent here.
    You ignore one major factor, the lastest infamous mass murderer was not a gun owner at all, he stole those guns from a person that he killed (his own mother). Is it the fault of his mother that she was chosen as his first victim? Perhaps we should tax mothers, since all that commit crimes with guns have had mothers, but may not have ever bought guns.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Sandy Hook: Beyond gun control, disease control

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You ignore one major factor, the lastest infamous mass murderer was not a gun owner at all, he stole those guns from a person that he killed (his own mother). Is it the fault of his mother that she was chosen as his first victim? Perhaps we should tax mothers, since all that commit crimes with guns have had mothers, but may not have ever bought guns.
    Neither were the Columbine shooters. Someone bought their guns for them illegally. But in both cases it's possible - not inevitable, but inevitability isn't necessary in either case - that more expensive ammunition would have prevented both actions.

    I'm not thrilled with the idea of a gunpowder tax. But if we're to pay for gun violence prevention and mental health coverage with an eye towards preventing gun violence, then the idea I've proposed is, by far, the fairest: let those who are most likely to engage in violent behavior pay for preventing that behavior.

    Gun owners, their bloviating to the contrary, have gotten off very well in this nation. I'm not interested in changing that. I do think that they have a responsibility to themselves, however, to ensure that their own community no longer suffers scapegoating. They can do this by paying a little more for their ammunition, and by doing so without pretending that they're being martyred.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

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    Re: Sandy Hook: Beyond gun control, disease control

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You ignore one major factor, the lastest infamous mass murderer was not a gun owner at all, he stole those guns from a person that he killed (his own mother). Is it the fault of his mother that she was chosen as his first victim? Perhaps we should tax mothers, since all that commit crimes with guns have had mothers, but may not have ever bought guns.
    we should tax leftwingers since they tend to have similar mindsets with criminals. Liberal Stanford Law Professor Pam Karlan noted that most felons vote democrat when they are allowed to vote

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    Re: Sandy Hook: Beyond gun control, disease control

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    Neither were the Columbine shooters. Someone bought their guns for them illegally. But in both cases it's possible - not inevitable, but inevitability isn't necessary in either case - that more expensive ammunition would have prevented both actions.

    I'm not thrilled with the idea of a gunpowder tax. But if we're to pay for gun violence prevention and mental health coverage with an eye towards preventing gun violence, then the idea I've proposed is, by far, the fairest: let those who are most likely to engage in violent behavior pay for preventing that behavior.
    gun owners are less than one in 100 to engage in crime

    black males-far higher

    so why not tax black males

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    Re: Sandy Hook: Beyond gun control, disease control

    Tax gunpowder all you like. Modern ammunition does not use gunpowder.


    (It uses various formulations of smokeless powder, which isn't the same thing.)

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    Re: Sandy Hook: Beyond gun control, disease control

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You ignore one major factor, the lastest infamous mass murderer was not a gun owner at all, he stole those guns from a person that he killed (his own mother). Is it the fault of his mother that she was chosen as his first victim? Perhaps we should tax mothers, since all that commit crimes with guns have had mothers, but may not have ever bought guns.
    I tend to agree with your OP's argument. Just like other things, you pay for what you get via taxes. Sorry pals but guns do kill people and us non-gun owners shouldn't have to be reprimanded. If you want to buy a gun, you should have to pay for the POTENTIAL blowback.

    EDIT: and I'm sure there is a figure that could be added to gun tax for violence like this.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    Re: Sandy Hook: Beyond gun control, disease control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    gun owners are less than one in 100 to engage in crime
    And yet guns are more likely to be used in the commission of violent crime than any other weapon (this is not the case in other nations).

    black males-far higher

    so why not tax black males
    What do black males buy that's associated exclusively with black males that could be taxed? Or are you doing that whole 'moral grunting' thing again, where you verbalize the equivalent of a howl of rage?
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

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    Re: Sandy Hook: Beyond gun control, disease control

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    And yet guns are more likely to be used in the commission of violent crime than any other weapon (this is not the case in other nations).



    What do black males buy that's associated exclusively with black males that could be taxed? Or are you doing that whole 'moral grunting' thing again, where you verbalize the equivalent of a howl of rage?
    your logic is silly If your goal is to tax people most likely to be involved in crime, its not legal gun owners, its black males who were raised in single parent households who dropped out of HS. those three factors are the most reliable predictors of being convicted of a felony

    those who buy a gun lawfully? many times less chance

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