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Thread: 'As a black person it's always racial': Django Unchained star Jamie Foxx explains why

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    Re: 'As a black person it's always racial': Django Unchained star Jamie Foxx explains

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63
    except that the vast majority of blacks living in the US today have had no "wrong doing" done to them...other than by their own kind
    See my reply to Caine, above. The past is always prologue, whether people are consciously aware of it or not. Past causes have present effects, again, whether we are consciously aware of them or not.

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    Re: 'As a black person it's always racial': Django Unchained star Jamie Foxx explains

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    See my reply to Caine, above. The past is always prologue, whether people are consciously aware of it or not. Past causes have present effects, again, whether we are consciously aware of them or not.
    IOW...it's not black folks fault that they are prejudiced against whites...they can't help it due to the past history of slavery, etc?

    don't you see how insulting that is to blacks? you imply that they lack the wit to understand that those today are not responsible for the wrongs done in the past. and that, my friend, is more racist that the use of any racial slur
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: 'As a black person it's always racial': Django Unchained star Jamie Foxx explains

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    No; my point is that they do experience the consequences of "this stuff," and those consequences are both very real and very potent.
    Wrong. So what you are saying is that up until a black kid learns about "black history" is he perfectly fine. But once he learns about black history that is where we have screwed him because now we have taught him the reason for resentment? I fail to understand how a black kid is supposed to know to be resentful without being taught the reason..... I fail to understand why it is acceptable to be resentful.


    Demonstrably untrue.
    Then demonstrate please... I implore you to try to teach me how it is supposed to be acceptable for blacks to be resentful towards people who had nothing to do with their ancestors mistreatment.





    This seems almost absurdly false. Did you directly experience the American Revolution? Does the American Revolution have some effect on you? The answer is almost surely no to the first, and yes to the second.

    The same principle is at work here. No, African Americans alive today did not experience slavery directly; they do experience the continuing results.
    The fact of the matter is, yes it happened. Yes in a way it affects me. But no I don't sit there thinking, "Oh wow, I act like this or that because the American Revolution happened!!!! Thats the most ignorant way of attempting to excuse resentment by blacks towards whites who had absolutely nothing to do with their poor treatment and enslavement. You ****ing serious with this ****?





    No, but I am one of those people who thinks that others ought to be reasonable, and also ought to try to understand a position before they criticize it.
    You are going out of your way to be "PC" and you end up sounding like a fool.




    No, I am saying that the massive widespread crimes of the past, which were never sufficiently redressed, have ongoing effects today, even if they are not directly experienced. Furthermore, those effects are potent, and the ongoing inequality and racial attitudes in our society amply bear out this point.
    What are those effects then.....

    You keep talking about them..... Demonstrate how slavery affects a black man born in 1986.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: 'As a black person it's always racial': Django Unchained star Jamie Foxx explains

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    See my reply to Caine, above. The past is always prologue, whether people are consciously aware of it or not. Past causes have present effects, again, whether we are consciously aware of them or not.
    At what point do you see this "bad past" as being a "thing of the past"? While there is no valid or logical reason not to resent and remember that past discrimination, that in no way is the fault of those living in the present, many of which have relatives that fought and died to right that past wrong. Holding grudges for past wrongs, against those that share nothing but race with those that did the wrong is racism, pure and simple. Get over it, move on and fully celebrate the opportunity of the present to be just another proud American.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: 'As a black person it's always racial': Django Unchained star Jamie Foxx explains

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63
    IOW...
    I would not say that your "other words" do not paraphrase mine correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63
    it's not black folks fault that they are prejudiced against whites...they can't help it due to the past history of slavery, etc?
    Well, three points:

    1) It's hardly the case that conscious decisions are the only factor that matters. To use the example I gave earlier, we are all directly affected by the American Revolutionary War. This is the case even if we did not directly experience it, and whether or not we are conscious of all those effects. So your objection ignores far too much.

    2) Most prejudices are not the fault of the people who hold them. Google "implicit bias".

    3) Human beings naturally expect the future to behave roughly like the past. Given the past under discussion, conscious suspicion, and even outright anger, is justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63
    don't you see how insulting that is to blacks?
    You mean what you said? Or what I said? I'm not sure about the first, but I don't think what I said is insulting.

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63
    you imply that they lack the wit to understand that those today are not responsible for the wrongs done in the past. and that, my friend, is more racist that the use of any racial slur
    You seem to misunderstand the point. I'm not sure why. I'm not talking about conscious decisions made by African American human beings--or, at least, not mostly about that. I would include, among the effects I'm discussing, things like the fact that many, if not most, African Americans are never provided education in such basic skills as how to study for a test, how to offer a proper handshake, or etc. It's hard to improve when you don't even know which questions to ask. But I suppose decisions made under such conditions are still conscious decisions. Whether they are truly free or not is another issue.

    However, see, for example, these studies:

    Modern Racism and Modern Discrimination

    http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/72/2/262/

    Cognitive Costs of Exposure to Racial Prejudice

    Or this article:

    Pay gap persists for African-Americans - Jul. 30, 2010

    These just scratch the surface. But the picture that emerges is that black people continue to face unconscious discrimination among people who might hire them. And these are direct and ongoing effects of history.

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    Re: 'As a black person it's always racial': Django Unchained star Jamie Foxx explains

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Wrong. So what you are saying is that up until a black kid learns about "black history" is he perfectly fine.
    No, that is not what I am saying. The effects of history happen regardless of whether people are aware of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    But once he learns about black history that is where we have screwed him because now we have taught him the reason for resentment?
    Again, no. This really does seem like a blatant attempt to not understand what I'm saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    I fail to understand how a black kid is supposed to know to be resentful without being taught the reason..... I fail to understand why it is acceptable to be resentful.
    It's acceptable when there is a reason to resent someone or some thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Then demonstrate please... I implore you to try to teach me how it is supposed to be acceptable for blacks to be resentful towards people who had nothing to do with their ancestors mistreatment.
    That wasn't what I was saying is demonstrably untrue. You were saying that the average African American
    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    ... has just as many opportunities available to them (more so when you consider affirmative action and minority scholarships) as anyone else in most locations in the country.....so I fail to see why we should ENCOURAGE someone's racial resentment by claiming it is excusable.
    It's demonstrably untrue that African Americans have the same opportunities, on average, as white Americans. See, for instance:
    JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
    The "Hustle": Socioeconomic Deprivation, Urban Drug Trafficking, and Low-Income, African-American Male Gender Identity
    Elsevier: Article Locator
    JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
    Race, Socioeconomic Status, and Health The Added Effects of Racism and Discrimination - WILLIAMS - 2006 - Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences - Wiley Online Library
    JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
    Again, this just scratches the surface. A few hours with Google Scholar, or in a good academic research library, will yield hundreds of such studies taking a wide and varried group of approaches. The picture that emerges is one of ongoing discrimination in a wide array of factors. African Americans just lack the social capital that white Americans have, and we can find good reasons why. Those reasons started in the history I've mentioned, and they continue to have an effect on the present.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    The fact of the matter is, yes it happened. Yes in a way it affects me. But no I don't sit there thinking, "Oh wow, I act like this or that because the American Revolution happened!!!!
    Why do I need it to be the case that you do (or that African American do, per the analogy) to have a point?
    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Thats the most ignorant way of attempting to excuse resentment by blacks towards whites who had absolutely nothing to do with their poor treatment and enslavement.
    It remains the effects of enslavement and discrimination that does excuse resentment. Slavery and Jim Crow were the origin of the problem, but their effects are ongoing. It is those effects that do excuse resentment.
    Look: suppose we had a justice system that allowed things like familial dishonor and generational debt payment. Someone takes you to court and wins a settlement against you for 500 billion dollars. You work until you die, and then your children have to pay, and after they die, their children, on and on, until the guy who originally won is long dead, and his descendants are being paid by your descendants, and perhaps all of the people involved don't even recall what the original issue is. You cannot say, in such a situation, that the original decision isn't affecting your descendants. They didn't experience the case. They may not even know anything about it. But the ongoing effect--i.e. their income is taken and given to others--continues to affect their lives. Especially if the arrangement were markedly unfair, they'd be right to resent the family they're paying their money to.

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    Re: 'As a black person it's always racial': Django Unchained star Jamie Foxx explains

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640
    At what point do you see this "bad past" as being a "thing of the past"?
    When the effects are completely nullified. Until then, the past remains with us. This is true of anything, not just the matter under discussion. In a real sense, the Roman Empire is still a current entity--it has a direct effect on our current civilization. On the other hand, the Scythian Empire has become a thing of the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640
    While there is no valid or logical reason not to resent and remember that past discrimination, that in no way is the fault of those living in the present, many of which have relatives that fought and died to right that past wrong. Holding grudges for past wrongs, against those that share nothing but race with those that did the wrong is racism, pure and simple. Get over it, move on and fully celebrate the opportunity of the present to be just another proud American.
    Like my other interlocutors here, you're focussing on the original cause at the expense of looking at the ongoing effects. It's the latter that concern me, and the latter that, I think, justify the sorts of attitudes expressed by Jamie Foxx.

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    Re: 'As a black person it's always racial': Django Unchained star Jamie Foxx explains

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    Uhh...I am not drunk, and I said something about. I said something about it because that's the reality of the history under discussion. Before you can make any proclamations about the situation that people today face, you must deal responsibly with their history.
    not when it predates their lives.

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    Re: 'As a black person it's always racial': Django Unchained star Jamie Foxx explains

    My grandmother died recently and I went to a service held by her sisters in the deep country. She was a liberal woman who moved out of that area, but many people, as you all know, don't care to. In her sister's house are two pictures on either side of the mantle of their grandfather and great uncle (or some ****) - two civil war soldiers for the Confederacy - and in the middle a giant rebel flag. You guys act like it was so long ago, but I actually know people who are still alive who knew and met family members that fought in that war. And then, when you compound Jim Crow laws, and the fact that it didn't really start coming to an end until the 60s and 70s - one generation away for many of (or part of our generation as well), it's ridiculous and embarrassing that people think that there would not be extreme sensitivity.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    Re: 'As a black person it's always racial': Django Unchained star Jamie Foxx explains

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    No, that is not what I am saying. The effects of history happen regardless of whether people are aware of them.
    So... A black baby born into this world is already born resentful towards whites because of something that has happened in history that has not affected them? Even though they don't know the difference between races yet?

    Quit jabbering about "Oh Woes R DUH EFFEKZ UF DUH HIZTORY" and make SENSE! What effects of history? At what point in a black person's life is it that they obtain awareness of their inherent resentment towards white people, which is an excusable trait?


    Again, no. This really does seem like a blatant attempt to not understand what I'm saying.
    You are just repeating the same thing without making any effort to explain why history should matter to the 80s and 90s born black people who have had full and equal opportunity in the country since their birth. You just keep repeating.... "Oh Woez is duh history dat be holdin' da black menzzes down"



    It's acceptable when there is a reason to resent someone or some thing.
    And again, we come full circle enough for me to ask... What reason does a 18 year old black male have to resent white people that he should be excused for his resentment?



    That wasn't what I was saying is demonstrably untrue. You were saying that the average African American

    It's demonstrably untrue that African Americans have the same opportunities, on average, as white Americans. See, for instance:
    Socioeconomic status is what matters. An upper class black kid is going to have the same opportunities as an upper class white kid. Same goes for the poor whites and blacks.

    BTW: Your links suck... half of them don't work, the others talk about "disease rates are higher for afric.." OF ****ING COURSE THEY ARE... WHITE PEOPLE CAN'T GET SICKLE CELL. Are blacks excused for being resentful towards us for ****ing simple god damned genetics too?
    African Americans just lack the social capital that white Americans have, and we can find good reasons why. Those reasons started in the history I've mentioned, and they continue to have an effect on the present.
    Sorry, I call bull****. "Social capital" is something an INDIVIDUAL builds. You show up to a job interview dressed well, articulate, honest, and qualified for the job, and it doesn't matter if you are black or white. Show up with a ****ty "ghetto" attitude and you'll get turned away, white or black..... with a few areas being an exception to this.

    BTW: There you go with that "Dat Dere Hizzztory I dun mentioned before in such a veerrry vague manner"


    It remains the effects of enslavement and discrimination that does excuse resentment. Slavery and Jim Crow were the origin of the problem, but their effects are ongoing. It is those effects that do excuse resentment.
    So I, who had nothing to do with slavery or discrimination........ I am supposed to ACCEPT having people of another race hateful and resentful and distrustful towards me for some **** I didn't do to them, who didn't experience it.... and you expect the racial "gap" to be bridged? GTFO. Until blacks can grow up and move on, it ain't going to happen. Im not kissing someone's ass because of some **** I didn't do, and I am sick of walking on eggshells. So call me a racist... cause I didn't have **** to do with it.


    Look: suppose we had a justice system that allowed things like familial dishonor and generational debt payment. Someone takes you to court and wins a settlement against you for 500 billion dollars. You work until you die, and then your children have to pay, and after they die, their children, on and on, until the guy who originally won is long dead, and his descendants are being paid by your descendants, and perhaps all of the people involved don't even recall what the original issue is. You cannot say, in such a situation, that the original decision isn't affecting your descendants.
    And yet that is an alternate reality to the one being faced by blacks born in the current generation of mid 20s and early 30 year olds.......... Nobody is paying **** back. Last time I checked, my black friends don't have a ****ing check they have to send off to the "Cracker Slave Massa" that sets them back every month. So your analogy can suck a nut.



    You see.... Apparently you think you are talking to just another privileged northern hand flopping white dude whose parents had plenty of "opportunity" to pass on to them.

    No, I grew up moving from one "trailer" to the next......When I got out of high school I joined the Army..... something any black guy or gal could, and many did. When I left the military after serving my time, I joined a police department, where many black guys and gals could, and did, join as well.

    So you see..... Claiming I had some kind of special leg up in life because I am white is just ****ing stupid. Any poor black person who stayed out of trouble (that is THEIR responsibility to do, regardless of where they life) and stayed in school (THEIR RESPONSIBILITY) could have done the same thing.

    If someone lacked the ability to make good decisions, they can't blame that **** on their race.... because I know plenty of broke ass crackers in North Carolina who made ****ty decisions too.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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