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SCOTUS: Scalia on the defensive over gay rights

Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

The point is that your initial point is dumb as Hell.

Do you consider yourself a moral relativist, Maggie?

I'd be happy to answer that if I knew what a moral relativist was, Einzige. But if you went through these last three posts of yours to simply say, "Your initial point is dumb as hell," then it really doesn't make much difference. You're a very poor communicator. That likes obscure terms. Obscure terms =/= intelligence.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

The fact that he seriously thinks that being gay, and murder are on the same plane morally is damning enough. He wouldn't make the argument otherwise.

I think he was just trying to take the most outrageous example of having moral feelings about an outlawed act to make his point. His statement does not mean he necissarily thinks murder and homosexuality are on the same plane morally, unless the plane includes everything he thinks is immoral.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

I'd be happy to answer that if I knew what a moral relativist was, Einzige. But if you went through these last three posts of yours to simply say, "Your initial point is dumb as hell," then it really doesn't make much difference. You're a very poor communicator. That likes obscure terms. Obscure terms =/= intelligence.

Jesus Christ, "moral relativism" isn't an 'obscure term'. Goddamned John Hagee uses it liberally in condemning modern society. It's long been a favorite watchword of undereducated right-wing moralists, and 'moral relativists' rarely apply the term to themselves.

Let me put it in a language you can understand: do you think that some moral rules apply more to some people than to others?
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

I can understand it, but I'm not going to pretend that it's not wrong. And I'm sure as **** not going to not fight when he tries to discriminate against me.

I feel better that you can understand it, YourStar. And I don't blame you one iota for disagreeing with his archaic way of thinking. He's an old man...from an older world. In regards todays' morals, his thoughts are irrelevant, in my opinion.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

I think he was just trying to take the most outrageous example of having moral feelings about an outlawed act to make his point. His statement does not mean he necissarily thinks murder and homosexuality are on the same plane morally, unless the plane includes everything he thinks is immoral.

I don't think so, he's a pretty big bigot.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

I feel better that you can understand it, YourStar. And I don't blame you one iota for disagreeing with his archaic way of thinking. He's an old man...from an older world. In regards todays' morals, his thoughts are irrelevant, in my opinion.

See? You are a moral relativist, whether you know it (or what the word means) or not. "He's older, and as such exempt from some of the moral rules we apply to ourselves today."
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

I feel better that you can understand it, YourStar. And I don't blame you one iota for disagreeing with his archaic way of thinking. He's an old man...from an older world. In regards todays' morals, his thoughts are irrelevant, in my opinion.

Well his thoughts aren't really irrelevant since he's on the SCOTUS. I'm not going to judge him on the morals of the 50's, I'm going to judge him on the morals of today, and today holding those views is wrong, and he should be judged accordingly.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

The fact that he seriously thinks that being gay, and murder are on the same plane morally is damning enough. He wouldn't make the argument otherwise.

Uh he didn't
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

He was comparing the ability of having moral feelings about homosexuality and murder. He was not comparing homosexuality and murder themselves.

Scalia wants to overturn Lawrence vs Texas and allow states to outlaw homosexual acts. He is comparing them.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

That is a ridiculous argument. But it still isn't directly comparing murder and homosexuality, and it certainly isn't equating them.

Lawyers study words and how they affect people. Emotionally and cognitively.

What he did was to.conflate the two.

The fallacy he committed was using unrelated examples.

Murder is universally a crime. Humans considered it a crime before there were formal laws.

His ENTIRE job is words.and what they mean. He knows what chords hes plucking when he does this.

Similar to the "bestiality is next" bit.

"If we cant think morally about same.sex marriage, can we think morally about interracial marriage?" (Paraphrase)

See how different his statement sounds by simply substituting another thing some people think is immoral?

He does.
 
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Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

Jesus Christ, "moral relativism" isn't an 'obscure term'. Goddamned John Hagee uses it liberally in condemning modern society. It's long been a favorite watchword of undereducated right-wing moralists, and 'moral relativists' rarely apply the term to themselves.

Let me put it in a language you can understand: do you think that some moral rules apply more to some people than to others?

Who the HELL is John Hagee?

Never mind. Thanks for the translation. My answer to your question would be no. In regards this particular post, I don't see how that applies. Advocating for gay rights...understanding that being homosexual is not a choice but a gender...all the rest -- is newer-age thinking. And right, as far as I'm concerned. But I can most certainly understand a guy in his 70's having a problem with it. If you can't? That's your shortcoming.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

I don't think so, he's a pretty big bigot.

He might be. I don't know. Based only on that statement though, you could not conclude he was a bigot.

He's making an argument I disagree with about whether morality should be legislated, but he isn't equating murder to homosexuality, other than that he believes both of them to be immoral.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

Who the HELL is John Hagee?

Never mind. Thanks for the translation. My answer to your question would be no. In regards this particular post, I don't see how that applies. Advocating for gay rights...understanding that being homosexual is not a choice but a gender...all the rest -- is newer-age thinking. And right, as far as I'm concerned. But I can most certainly understand a guy in his 70's having a problem with it. If you can't? That's your shortcoming.

Nobody's argued that it's incomprehensible that an ancient Papist should hold to ancient views. The argument is that it doesn't matter, and that he's as beholden to modern ethical standards as anyone else. His age doesn't exempt him from obeying the same standards as everyone else. It's so ironic that dogmatic moralism breeds this kind of relativism.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

If Scalia wasn't making the comparison then why did he say it?

This is the essence of the matter, and it's consistent with Scalia's past use of inflammatory rightwing rhetoric. His judicial "theory" is just a facade for conservative goals, like vilifying minorities.

Again, not only must Justices decide cases fairly, they must appear to decide fairly. Scalia can't do that, being a political hack. He has no business on the court and has harmed its reputation as numerous constitutional scholars have noted.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

See? You are a moral relativist, whether you know it (or what the word means) or not. "He's older, and as such exempt from some of the moral rules we apply to ourselves today."

He's not exempt from anything except perhaps harsh judgment for his beliefs. If understanding why an old man would be against practicing homosexuality, same-sex marriage and all the rest makes me a moral relativist, I certainly don't consider that an insult.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

Scalia wants to overturn Lawrence vs Texas and allow states to outlaw homosexual acts. He is comparing them.

Yes he does. In this statement, he still isn't directly comparing the two though.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

Well his thoughts aren't really irrelevant since he's on the SCOTUS. I'm not going to judge him on the morals of the 50's, I'm going to judge him on the morals of today, and today holding those views is wrong, and he should be judged accordingly.

*Shrug* I'm sure there are many views held by SCOTUS justices that you wouldn't agree with. At least his view, on this particular subject, is understandable.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

He's not exempt from anything except perhaps harsh judgment for his beliefs. If understanding why an old man would be against practicing homosexuality, same-sex marriage and all the rest makes me a moral relativist, I certainly don't consider that an insult.

You're absolutely, completely incorrect. He ought to be judged harshly despite his age, and particularly given his willingness to invoke his own moral absolutes. There are certain higher principles, and Scalia has violated them. His age is irrelevant in determining the worthiness of his views for consideration.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

Yes he does. In this statement, he still isn't directly comparing the two though.

Worse, he's comparing the principle that "moral feelings" that amount to discrimination against minorities can be embodied into law, even if they have no social purpose beside promoting discriminatory desires, with the principle that people have a right to bar practices that both harm people and are morally reprehensible -- like murder. It's intellectual sleight of hand..

And that's why he has no business on the court.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

*Shrug* I'm sure there are many views held by SCOTUS justices that you wouldn't agree with. At least his view, on this particular subject, is understandable.

Being understandable doesn't make it right. Just because one grew up in a time where it was okay to discriminate, harass, beat up, and kill LGBT people doesn't make it okay to hold those values today. He shouldn't get a free pass just because he's old. That kind of thinking is what holds back progress.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

well Scalia is widely seen as one of the greatest intellects to ever sit on the court. we get the fact that you don't like his views on gays, lesbians etc. and while I disagree with him on his views towards gays he certainly is a better justice than anyone the dems have appointed in the last 40 years
Turtle ... he compared homosexuality to murder.

Murder.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

Worse, he's comparing the principle that "moral feelings" that amount to discrimination against minorities can be embodied into law, even if they have no social purpose beside emobying discriminatory desires.

Yes, this seems to be pretty much his actual argument. He's using the laws against murder, which people generally have moral feelings against, as an argument for laws against homosexuality. I agree that moral feelings should not be used as a reason for legislation. Laws against murder serve to protect social order, and I do not believe that laws against homosexuality protect social order, and therefore shouldn't be legislated.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

You're absolutely, completely incorrect. He ought to be judged harshly despite his age, and particularly given his willingness to invoke his own moral absolutes. There are certain higher principles, and Scalia has violated them. His age is irrelevant in determining the worthiness of his views for consideration.

We have justices on the Supreme Court for their learned opinions. We agree with many. We disagree with many. His is one opinion. He is entitled to it. I wouldn't agree with him if he said gay marriage was unconstitutional, if that is what he thought But we don't even know that. There's a reason we don't appoint 30-year-olds to SCOTUS, my friend.

So, tell me. What is it that he said that makes him a target for homosexuals?? If it's from this, it's much ado about absolutely nothing:

The Supreme Court justice was visiting Princeton University on Monday to discuss his latest book when a college freshman, who identifies as gay, asked Scalia about the comparison he has drawn between laws banning sodomy with those barring bestiality and murder.

“If we cannot have moral feelings against or objections to homosexuality, can we have it against anything?” Scalia said in response to the question, according to The Daily Princetonian.
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

Being understandable doesn't make it right. Just because one grew up in a time where it was okay to discriminate, harass, beat up, and kill LGBT people doesn't make it okay to hold those values today. He shouldn't get a free pass just because he's old. That kind of thinking is what holds back progress.

WTF did he say that leads you to that absolutely ridiculous parallel?
 
Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

He was comparing the ability of having moral feelings about homosexuality and murder. He was not comparing homosexuality and murder themselves.
If Scalia is an orginalist then what do moral feelings have to do with the constitution or statutory law? Is the court in the habit of ruling on feelings? No, I think Scalia meant exactly what he said, that he thinks homosexuality is immoral and he deliberately made the comparison to murder to make his point known. Whether he rules on his feeeeeelings or the intent of the constitution remains to be seen.
 
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