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Thread: SCOTUS: Scalia on the defensive over gay rights

  1. #151
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    Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    We have justices on the Supreme Court for their learned opinions. We agree with many. We disagree with many. His is one opinion. He is entitled to it. I wouldn't agree with him if he said gay marriage was unconstitutional, if that is what he thought But we don't even know that. There's a reason we don't appoint 30-year-olds to SCOTUS, my friend
    Playing the victim, especially by proxy, is cowardly, Maggie. Nobody's denying Scalia the right to hold whatever opinion he wishes. It's impossible to do so. We simply refuse to accept or acknowledge his opinion as legitimate; further, we regard that opinion as a reflection of a piggish personality. That ought to be acceptable to you, live-and-let-live as you sometimes want to be seen to be.
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    Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    Yes, this seems to be pretty much his actual argument. He's using the laws against murder, which people generally have moral feelings against, as an argument for laws against homosexuality. I agree that moral feelings should not be used as a reason for legislation. Laws against murder serve to protect social order, and I do not believe that laws against homosexuality protect social order, and therefore shouldn't be legislated.
    What you say makes sense. So why did Scalia use this invidious comparison?

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    Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    WTF did he say that leads you to that absolutely ridiculous parallel?
    His history on LGBT rights. Obviously.
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    Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    If Scalia is an orginalist then what do moral feelings have to do with the constitution or statutory law? Is the court in the habit of ruling on feelings? No, I think Scalia meant exactly what he said, that he thinks homosexuality is immoral and he deliberately made the comparison to murder to make his point known.
    Well the source in the OP is vague and unclear, but it seems to me he was trying to use the laws against murder that we have to justify laws against homosexuality. By making the argument that the laws against murder are based on moral feelings against it, then the laws against homosexuality would be similarly justified. I disagree with the conclusion, as laws against murder are to serve social order, whereas laws against homosexuality or same-sex marriage wouldn't.

    Now he is making the argument that homosexuality and murder are both immoral actions, but he is not comparing them any more than if he said that a traffic violation and murder are both illegal.
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    Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    What you say makes sense. So why did Scalia use this invidious comparison?
    He was trying to make his argument as strong as possible. He wanted to use an example that everyone agrees is immoral in order to try to make the argument that we have laws based on moral feelings. I disagree with his conclusion that laws against murder are based on moral feelings rather than social order, but he wasn't comparing the level of immorality of homosexuality to that of murder.
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    Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    Well the source in the OP is vague and unclear, but it seems to me he was trying to use the laws against murder that we have to justify laws against homosexuality. By making the argument that the laws against murder are based on moral feelings against it, then the laws against homosexuality would be similarly justified. I disagree with the conclusion, as laws against murder are to serve social order, whereas laws against homosexuality or same-sex marriage wouldn't.

    Now he is making the argument that homosexuality and murder are both immoral actions, but he is not comparing them any more than if he said that a traffic violation and murder are both illegal.
    So are you saying that Scalia has already judged homosexuality to be immoral and is using immorality of murder as his justification? I just don't get the comparison because the founders knew slavery was immoral and went to great lengths to make sure it was not mentioned by name in the constitution and yet it was legal at the time of the ratification. So why didn't he use slavery as a comparison, instead? As an orginalist, is Scalia for or against slavery?

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    Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    So are you saying that Scalia has already judged homosexuality to be immoral and is using immorality of murder as his justification?
    He seems to be using the existence of laws against murder to prove that there are laws based on moral feelings. Then he is using the existence of those laws to justify laws against homosexuality. Or at least that's my guess at what he's doing, as the source in the OP isn't very clear.

    As an orginalist, is Scalia for or against slavery?
    He is probably against it personally, due to its immorality, and legally due the fact it has now been nullified in the constitution by amendments. I don't really see what this has to do with the statement in the OP though.
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    Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    He seems to be using the existence of laws against murder to prove that there are laws based on moral feelings. Then he is using the existence of those laws to justify laws against homosexuality. Or at least that's my guess at what he's doing, as the source in the OP isn't very clear.
    Is the problem that the source isn't clear, or that this is a typical muddled utterance out of Scalia?
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    Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    Is the problem that the source isn't clear, or that this is a typical muddled utterance out of Scalia?
    I don't know. There isn't quite enough in the source for me to be completely sure of what Scalia's point is precisely. I don't know if that is because the source leaves something out, or if Scalia doesn't offer anything more.
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    Re: Justice Scalia compares homosexuality to murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    He was trying to make his argument as strong as possible. He wanted to use an example that everyone agrees is immoral in order to try to make the argument that we have laws based on moral feelings. I disagree with his conclusion that laws against murder are based on moral feelings rather than social order, but he wasn't comparing the level of immorality of homosexuality to that of murder.
    I agree with the bolded part above and thought you made an excellent point that murder violates the social order as opposed to being immoral which I tend to equate with religion rather legaleze.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    I don't know. There isn't quite enough in the source for me to be completely sure of what Scalia's point is precisely. I don't know if that is because the source leaves something out, or if Scalia doesn't offer anything more.
    Somehow Scalia doesn't strike me as the vague type. You said yourself he was trying to make the strongest point possible and equating the morality of homosexuality with murder certainly had that effect. I think he meant what he said, the immorality of homosexuality equates to murder in his opinion and I see no need to sugar coat or excuse it. He said it, so let him take responsibility for it and God help us all that he should live much longer.

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