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Thread: Howard Dean: "The Truth Is Everybody Needs To Pay More Taxes, Not Just The Rich"

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    Re: Howard Dean: "The Truth Is Everybody Needs To Pay More Taxes, Not Just The Rich"

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor
    It comes from an understanding that our current deficit situation isn't due to low taxes, but low numbers of workers paying taxes. If you want tax revenue, putting people back to work is priority #1 (and 2, 3, 4...). Taxing high earners doesn't put people back to work. Employment has remained flat since the end of the recession - jobs plummeted and we've essentially been holding steady at the low point ever since.
    That's been the case the last two recessions...which tells me something. But that's another story; my point is that one cannot coherently hold that some class of people pays the largest share of total revenue, and that increasing taxes on that group would have no effect on the deficit. That's an inherently contradictory position unless the group is taxed at 100% of its wealth. If some group, by giving 30% of their income, foots over half the bill, increasing their taxes to 60% would double the revenue generated. That's simple math.

    Please note: I am not advocating that tax rates increase to those proportions. I'm merely demonstrating a point, and it's a point which shows there is a logical inconsistency in the rhetoric coming from the right on the taxes issue.

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    Re: Howard Dean: "The Truth Is Everybody Needs To Pay More Taxes, Not Just The Rich"

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler
    Taxes have done nothing but increase since the end of the civil war. That tells me that spending is what caused the deficit.
    Well, I suppose if you look at it that way, of course spending causes deficits; but in just the same way, the laws of physics caused the death of John Kennedy.
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler
    We live in a subsidized nation. There is not one facet of your life that is untouched by state or federal subsidies.
    So what? Human beings manipulate their environment to acheive some goal or other. This seems to be just a species of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler
    It's a house of cards whose base is smaller than it's top.
    If this means what I think it means, I'm not sure why this should necessarily be the case. I agree that it is, but that seems accidental (in the archaic sense). The government receives some amount of revenue, which is variable and can be varied more or less at will. The government spends money also, and that can be varied with something like the same range of stricture. Ergo, if taxes were increased to match or exceed spending, we'd have no deficit.
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler
    You can tax 100% of Americans for 100% of their incomes, and this issue will not be solved. It's not a taxing issue...it never was.
    It would be if spending were kept under the amount of revenue generated. Since no one is taxed at 100%, raising taxes to cover spending would have the same effect.

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    Re: Howard Dean: "The Truth Is Everybody Needs To Pay More Taxes, Not Just The Rich"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapunzel52 View Post
    Well it's the young who mostly are not working and now they can stay on their parents insurance until 26 which lowers the incentive to do so. Lots of them are also getting their college paid for by grants, loans and their parents, another de-incentiviser to get out to work and fend for yourself.
    There may be fewer young people working now than ever before in our history (don't have depression-era stats) - we can say it's lowest rate since at least WWII and the first time since the mid 60's that a majority aren't working:

    ep_16_24.jpg

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    Re: Howard Dean: "The Truth Is Everybody Needs To Pay More Taxes, Not Just The Rich"

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    That's been the case the last two recessions...which tells me something. But that's another story; my point is that one cannot coherently hold that some class of people pays the largest share of total revenue, and that increasing taxes on that group would have no effect on the deficit. That's an inherently contradictory position unless the group is taxed at 100% of its wealth. If some group, by giving 30% of their income, foots over half the bill, increasing their taxes to 60% would double the revenue generated. That's simple math.
    That's math that's too simple. If you increase taxes to 60%, a lot of people aren't going to work as hard and the economy will slow, reducing revenue and offsetting any gains you might receive. Tax revenue is largely a function of economic growth, not marginal tax rates.

    [then there's the problem with assuming that increased revenue equals smaller deficits, but that's yet another story]

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    Re: Howard Dean: "The Truth Is Everybody Needs To Pay More Taxes, Not Just The Rich"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapunzel52 View Post
    To add more pain we'll most likely see a VAT tax and carbon tax come into existence.
    For sure on the Carbon Tax. As Obama will the Demos will be looking to re-visit this issue over and over again.

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    Re: Howard Dean: "The Truth Is Everybody Needs To Pay More Taxes, Not Just The Rich"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dpetty View Post
    My personal opinion is there should be no income tax at all... For anyone, of any class...
    And how do you propose to pay for the government, or are you one of those loony no-government anarchists?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Howard Dean: "The Truth Is Everybody Needs To Pay More Taxes, Not Just The Rich"

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    For sure on the Carbon Tax. As Obama will the Demos will be looking to re-visit this issue over and over again.

    The next tax will be one on marijuana.

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    Re: Howard Dean: "The Truth Is Everybody Needs To Pay More Taxes, Not Just The Rich"

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    That's been the case the last two recessions...which tells me something. But that's another story; my point is that one cannot coherently hold that some class of people pays the largest share of total revenue, and that increasing taxes on that group would have no effect on the deficit. That's an inherently contradictory position unless the group is taxed at 100% of its wealth. If some group, by giving 30% of their income, foots over half the bill, increasing their taxes to 60% would double the revenue generated. That's simple math.

    Please note: I am not advocating that tax rates increase to those proportions. I'm merely demonstrating a point, and it's a point which shows there is a logical inconsistency in the rhetoric coming from the right on the taxes issue.
    In terms of revenue to expenditure, a 2% blip means relatively nothing. For that matter, a 100% increase (moving from 30% to 60%) would still have such a negligible effect as to not be anywhere close to "enough". We are upside down by over a trillion dollars every year. How do you feasibly take another trillion from those that are already contributing the lion's share? At some point you do start to remove the incentive for being wealthy. And even if "being rich" is an unfair state and should be eradicated by itself, how would you deal with the lag time for the economy to come back into equilibrium? Even the rich had nowhere else to go (which they do), they could simply retire and continue being filthy rich. They just wouldn't be producing anything anymore.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
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    Re: Howard Dean: "The Truth Is Everybody Needs To Pay More Taxes, Not Just The Rich"

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_rebson View Post
    The next tax will be one on marijuana.
    Didn't you hear about Mexico speaking out about Colorado and Washington State Legalizing such? Mexico and 4 other Central American States told Obama they need to re-analyze the situation and get back with them. As legalizing it will affect a Change in their Country's Policies!

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    Re: Howard Dean: "The Truth Is Everybody Needs To Pay More Taxes, Not Just The Rich"

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Sorry but the ball is in the Republicans court, the House needs to pass the bill in front of them or 98% of voters will know who to blame.
    No, it's in Obama's court. He needs to significantly reduce spending and allow the private sector, i.e. small businesses and middle class wage earners, to thrive. Increasing their taxes, which is what I'm sure he wants, will send the economy into another recession.

    Obama has no intention of reaching an agreement. He just wants more taxpayer dollars he can spread around.

    Let the economy fall off the physical cliff and his legacy is shot. In 20 years the asteric next to his name won't acknowledge a Republican House ever existed.
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    Generalizations are stupid.
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