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Thread: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman24 View Post
    Evasion. Abortion is legal Child neglect is not. Again how do you know abortion is "hardly ever necessary" just sitting back inyour rocking chair and blurting out stupidities/
    I have seen no statistic that indicates that the majority of abortions are medically necessary. Perhaps you could provide me a source for that from your castle in the sky that proves my statement is "stupidity". Parents make life and DEATH decisions for their children all the time---they elect not to pursue cancer treatment even when the treatment will prolong their child's life. They elect to take people off fluids and let them die a natural death. They elect not to have high risk surgeries that might remove brain tumors but could leave the child impaired. The only difference here is that these are religious people. If you can justify a parent taking one child's life (abortion) how can you justify not letting them let nature play itself out? It is not an evasion unless you find principles to be an evasion. You just do not like the result--neither do I--but it was their decision to make and now they are being punished for homicide because of a biological process not of their own doing as if losing their child is not punishment enough.

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    I like Berlin. Lots of artsy German Girls in Goth attire. Also good sausage.
    have you ever been to the Rhineland Pfalz (southwest Germany)? Thats my neck of the woods/
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman24 View Post
    have you ever been to the Rhineland Pfalz (southwest Germany)? Thats my neck of the woods/
    Nope. I've been to Berlin and Munich for a couple of days each, and had a six hour layover at the Frankfurt airport once. That's pretty much it for Germany.

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    I have seen no statistic that indicates that the majority of abortions are medically necessary. Perhaps you could provide me a source for that from your castle in the sky that proves my statement is "stupidity". Parents make life and DEATH decisions for their children all the time---they elect not to pursue cancer treatment even when the treatment will prolong their child's life. They elect to take people off fluids and let them die a natural death. They elect not to have high risk surgeries that might remove brain tumors but could leave the child impaired. The only difference here is that these are religious people. If you can justify a parent taking one child's life (abortion) how can you justify not letting them let nature play itself out? It is not an evasion unless you find principles to be an evasion. You just do not like the result--neither do I--but it was their decision to make and now they are being punished for homicide because of a biological process not of their own doing as if losing their child is not punishment enough.
    Unlike cancer or other highly terminal illnesses, diabetes is almost never terminal unless you leave it untreated.
    Unlike cancer or other highly terminal illnesses, treatment for diabetes almost never significantly decreases the quality of life of the afflicted.

    The parallels, then, are nonexistent.

    As to abortion....you're trying to compare the termination of a non-sentient life to allowing a child to suffer severe pain, delirium, hallucinations, extreme thirst, extreme hunger, illness, and (I reiterate, because it's significant) severe pain for days, weeks, or even MONTHS until their failed kidneys finally cause them to die from (what is essentially) poisoning. An abortion takes less than 5 minutes and most are performed before the point in development when pain receptors and nerve endings are able to communicate duress to the brain. Death by untreated diabetes is not nearly so quick and without awareness.

    That's what you're missing. By all definitions, it is nearly impossible for abortion to be inhumane, and equally as impossible as death from untreated diabetes to be the opposite.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Unlike cancer or other highly terminal illnesses, diabetes is almost never terminal unless you leave it untreated.
    Unlike cancer or other highly terminal illnesses, treatment for diabetes almost never significantly decreases the quality of life of the afflicted.

    The parallels, then, are nonexistent.

    As to abortion....you're trying to compare the termination of a non-sentient life to allowing a child to suffer severe pain, delirium, hallucinations, extreme thirst, extreme hunger, illness, and (I reiterate, because it's significant) severe pain for days, weeks, or even MONTHS until their failed kidneys finally cause them to die from (what is essentially) poisoning. An abortion takes less than 5 minutes and most are performed before the point in development when pain receptors and nerve endings are able to communicate duress to the brain. Death by untreated diabetes is not nearly so quick and without awareness.

    That's what you're missing. By all definitions, it is nearly impossible for abortion to be inhumane, and equally as impossible as death from untreated diabetes to be the opposite.
    Also, a fetus quite simply does not have the same legal rights as does a child.

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Unlike cancer or other highly terminal illnesses, diabetes is almost never terminal unless you leave it untreated.
    Unlike cancer or other highly terminal illnesses, treatment for diabetes almost never significantly decreases the quality of life of the afflicted.

    The parallels, then, are nonexistent.

    As to abortion....you're trying to compare the termination of a non-sentient life to allowing a child to suffer severe pain, delirium, hallucinations, extreme thirst, extreme hunger, illness, and (I reiterate, because it's significant) severe pain for days, weeks, or even MONTHS until their failed kidneys finally cause them to die from (what is essentially) poisoning. An abortion takes less than 5 minutes and most are performed before the point in development when pain receptors and nerve endings are able to communicate duress to the brain. Death by untreated diabetes is not nearly so quick and without awareness.

    That's what you're missing. By all definitions, it is nearly impossible for abortion to be inhumane, and equally as impossible as death from untreated diabetes to be the opposite.
    Not withstanding your assumptions about abortion with which a great many people disagree with you on, I have yet to meet someone with juvenile diabetes reach a full life. I have known far too many people who died slowly and miserably with diabetes though--most of them without at least 1 leg, often both, or functioning kidneys, or a life beyond being hooked up to a dialysis machine. Diabetes and cancer can both be terminal. All of that, nonetheless, is beside the point. They were passive and did not kill their child--diabetes did so they should not be convicted of homicide. Even larger than that is this was their decision to make, not yours, mine, or anybody else's. The decision they decided to make was based upon their faith, and as messed up as that is, it is their right.

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Not withstanding your assumptions about abortion with which a great many people disagree with you on, I have yet to meet someone with juvenile diabetes reach a full life. I have known far too many people who died slowly and miserably with diabetes though--most of them without at least 1 leg, often both, or functioning kidneys, or a life beyond being hooked up to a dialysis machine. Diabetes and cancer can both be terminal. All of that, nonetheless, is beside the point. They were passive and did not kill their child--diabetes did so they should not be convicted of homicide. Even larger than that is this was their decision to make, not yours, mine, or anybody else's. The decision they decided to make was based upon their faith, and as messed up as that is, it is their right.
    If a parent decided to withhold food and water and the child died of malnutrition and dehydration, would you defend those parents as you are defending the parents of the child with diabetes?
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Only the first one is arguably a comparable situation because it was a passive act. The other two would be affirmative acts and therefore a different analysis. As for the first one, I am unaware of that being a part of religious practice.
    None of those are passive acts because they all deliberate on the parent's part.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Another victim of diabetes.
    The diabetes wouldn't killed the child had the parents taken the child to medical professionals. So it is the fault of the parents for choosing to deny necessary medical care for their child.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 12-04-12 at 06:36 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    When it comes to the issue of rights, it is exactly a comparable situation. If society believes a parent has a duty to their child, then how could one have the complete opposite duty to them when they are unborn? It is a matter of rights, specific constitutional rights regarding the freedom of religion to be exact. I don't agree with the practice, but they certainly have the right to practice their faith. If their faith prevents them from seeking medical intervention for a third party, then that is their right IMHO.
    This isn't about freedom of religion.Parents don't have the right to deny life saving medical care for their children,parents don't have the right to deny education for their children, and parents don't have the right to beat their children within an inch of their life or kill their children because of religious beliefs.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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