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Thread: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

  1. #31
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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I thought they were protected. Christian scientists have been letting their kids die for quite some time now. It's not new and I thought they mostly got away with it.
    It depends on the state. In California, they can't get away with it. In Minnesota they can. We'll see what Wisconsin does.

  2. #32
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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    The child died a natural death from a disease.
    LOL, if you say so.

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post

    Im sorry, but a child health trumps a silly religous belief. Especially when the disease is treatable.
    Unf---ing real!

    This kind of nonsense should not be allowed to happen.


    MADISON, Wis. (AP) A couple who prayed while their daughter slowly died of diabetes will try Tuesday to persuade the state Supreme Court to overturn their homicide convictions, arguing state law protects them from prosecution.
    The case presents charged questions for the court about where religious freedom ends. The justices for the first time will have to weigh whether the state's faith-healing exemptions protect parents from criminal liability if their choices lead to a child's death.

    Read more: Lawyers to ask Wis. court to rule in prayer death - NewsTimes
    They won't win. Back in the 70's the WSCOTUS ruled on a simllar case with Christian Scientists who let their kid die of cancer instead of getting him treated. the court ruled that the parents regardless of religious affiliation had a responsiblity to provide medical care for the child to prevent the childs death. They cited several lower court cases with similar opinions.

    They were not charged with murder but with negligence resulting in the death of a person who was their legal "ward" (read child)_
    They both served time.

    In this case the fact that the parents also did almost nothing to help would imply criminal negligence. I am not familiar with the current laws regarding "faith based healing" but i doubt this will be conclusive enough to change the verdict. I assume they were charged with 2nd degree murder and so the charge could get reduced to negligent homicide.

    The child is a victim here of the parents neglect. the religious issues are not relavent.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    The parents should be in jail, what they did to their daughter was un-freaking believable. What the state should have done was take her away, and get her the proper medical attention she needed. If an adult wants to forgo treatment due to religious beliefs then fine, but a parent should not have the right to kill their child because of a religious belief they hold.
    Since the authorities probably did not know the child was sick they had no way to remove it. This type of stuff happens all the time in this country and it is grotesque.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    It is a horrible practice, but they should be allowed to do it, and their convictions should be overturned.
    So it is ok to let a child die for the parents convictions? GOD what is wrong with you.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    They didn't kill their child, diabetes did....
    Man you are sick. They had the obligation as parents to save thier child and they sat on thier ass and did nothing. God grant you don't have to go through something like this.

    Diabetes did MY GOD

    So now we let all people with serious illness just die and do nothing because its Gods will to kill them. Would that include your family?

    YOu need help
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

  7. #37
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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    I seriously cannot fathom how anybody can justify child abuse and/or neglect for the sake of free practice of religion. You have a right to the free exercise of your religious beliefs. You do not have a right to harm another person in said practice. If these parents were atheists who withheld food and water as a form of punishment nobody would justify the parents' behavior on the basis of their beliefs (religious, moralistic, or otherwise). If these parents were opposed to modern medicine because a psychic had told them it was "bad luck" nobody would justify the parents' behavior on the basis of their beliefs.

    The 1st amendment does not guarantee you the free exercise of your religious rights with absolutely no limitations. There are a multitude of limitations placed upon all of our rights, and most of those limitations are based upon how the exercise of your rights interferes with the ability of another to exercise theirs, or how the exercise of your rights negatively impacts another. The idea that we, as a society, would allow a parent to knowingly and willfully cause the death of their child in order to avoid infringing upon their religious rights is absolutely sickening. If the parent does not believe in modern medicine on the basis of religious doctrine then the parent can choose to deny themselves access to modern medical care. Their religious rights do not extend to denying their child that same access. Just as an adult can choose to starve themselves, beat themselves, cut themselves, burn themselves, castigate themselves...they have absolutely no right through any constitutional channel to do the same thing to their child.

    Using the 1st amendment as a shield to allow willful abuse upon the most vulnerable members of our society is most assuredly not what was intended when the founders wrote the constitution. But even if the founders were completely unconcerned with child welfare, we damn sure know better than to tolerate abuse and neglect of children in the modern era....even in the name of God.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  8. #38
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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The legal question is a bit complicated, because specific Wisconsin law states a parent who used faith/prayer healing of a child and that fails may not be charged with child abuse.

    The state claimed that since the charge was murder, not child abuse, that legal protection doesn't apply. The defense attorney argues that is a dodge around the law and Wisconsin should first have to change - or at least clarify - the statute because murdering a child certainly is "child abuse" and specific law says a parent can't be charged with child abuse for failed faith healing.

    In short the defense is arguing that the prosecution was making the absurd claim that murdering your child isn't abusing your child. The prosecution claims that child abuse and child murder aren't the same.

    While I do NOT support the principle of letting a child die upon a religious belief if this extreme, I think the defense is correct technically. Murdering a child is child abuse - and the law as written exempts faith healing from criminal prosecution for child abuse. In short, it is a bad old law that needs to be changed, but criminal laws can not be made retroactive.

    So it is more than just a generic question.
    No offense Joko but I beleive the wording is not child abuse but chid negligence. Since the child was not harmed physically the term abuse does not specifically apply. Wisconsin law has for years made this distinction.
    In this case the failure of the parent to treat the child did not result in physical harm (beating) but in willful neglect leading to an aggrevation of the illness resulting in death. This is murder under state statute (or was) and so the charge is and should reamain neglegent homicide.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

  9. #39
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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    When the Godless side of the aisle rails against Darwinism, and the pro-abortion side of the aisle suddenly rails against parental rights, I LOL at their silly hypocrisy.
    Who are you to say who is godless or not. God is God and makes such distinctions. Anyone who says otherwise is a loon and should be put away.

    And where is the hypocracy? In your mind? they neglected their charge (child) and did not treat her as any thinking parent would.

    WOuld you let your child die thus?
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

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    Re: Lawyers to ask Wisconsin court to rule in prayer death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    And abortion is hardly ever necessary but we don't mind when women have their babies brains blended out do we?
    Evasion. Abortion is legal Child neglect is not. Again how do you know abortion is "hardly ever necessary" just sitting back inyour rocking chair and blurting out stupidities/
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

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