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Thread: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

  1. #171
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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    All the money taken from SS for general fund use must be paid back through the general fund. All those rich folks that benefited from low taxes while SS was paying for things are going to have pony up. Its as simple as that. Easy fix!
    You're kidding right? The SS surpluses have been being spent almost from inception and most recently since the 1985 adjustment INCLUDING the Clinton years. Not quite a period when ‘those rich folks’ ‘benefitted from low tax rates’…

    And just to be clear the BTC’s caused the lowest bracket benefited from a 30% marginal rate reduction (15% to 10%) in comparison to the 11% reduction (39.5% to 35%) the ‘rich folks’ realized. Who benefited the most?
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    No, it isn't that simple.

    1) SS has been plundered for decades and even Obama cut th rate as a form of "payroll tax reduction". SS has not relly dealt with the longer lifespan issue and they better do something soon. As for the money that's been take? I don't know what happens when you steal from yourself. Do you pay yourself back?

    2) Taxes aren't just a matter of dollars or percentages. A 30% discount on the taxes of the lower incomes doesn't amount to a lot of dollars. On the highest incomes, the percentage is not a definition of the dollars.

    I'd rather pay 40% on a million than 0% on $20,000.00.

    It's a mess, isn't it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    You're kidding right? The SS surpluses have been being spent almost from inception and most recently since the 1985 adjustment INCLUDING the Clinton years. Not quite a period when ‘those rich folks’ ‘benefitted from low tax rates’…

    And just to be clear the BTC’s caused the lowest bracket benefited from a 30% marginal rate reduction (15% to 10%) in comparison to the 11% reduction (39.5% to 35%) the ‘rich folks’ realized. Who benefited the most?

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    You're kidding right? The SS surpluses have been being spent almost from inception and most recently since the 1985 adjustment INCLUDING the Clinton years. Not quite a period when ‘those rich folks’ ‘benefitted from low tax rates’…

    And just to be clear the BTC’s caused the lowest bracket benefited from a 30% marginal rate reduction (15% to 10%) in comparison to the 11% reduction (39.5% to 35%) the ‘rich folks’ realized. Who benefited the most?
    No, we aren't kidding at all. You do know that the treasury notes held are guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the United States correct? Do you think you can just walk away from that responsibility. We have never done so in the history of our country!

    As to who benefited from the tax cuts, Just ask the majority of the electorate who has benefited most from the "temporary tax cuts". Or if you wish, look at who holds the most of the wealth in this country.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, we aren't kidding at all. You do know that the treasury notes held are guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the United States correct? Do you think you can just walk away from that responsibility. We have never done so in the history of our country!
    Sorry but I am having trouble connecting the dots. I understood your assertion in post 169 to mean that ‘all the money taken from the SS for general fund must be paid back…all those rich folks…are going to have to pony up’. Meaning that while ALL citizens benefited by the government spending the SS money OVER MANY YEARS, ADMINISTRATIONS AND TAXATION RATES only the ‘rich folks’ must pay it back. Am I misunderstanding your point? If not does that seem fair?

    As to who benefited from the tax cuts, Just ask the majority of the electorate who has benefited most from the "temporary tax cuts". Or if you wish, look at who holds the most of the wealth in this country.
    How should we measure ‘who has benefited most from the "temporary tax cuts"? I presented the difference in the rate cut percentage by these "temporary tax cuts". Would you rather quantify that in dollar amounts? As to who holds the most of the wealth in this country, it has ALWAYS been the upper bracket…obviously so as that is what makes them the upper bracket…
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    I guess it is hard work trying all day every day to get more than the next filthy rich guy on the Forbes 400 list.
    That kind of life can not be enjoyable.
    that's sort of a silly stereotype. I could have retired at 30 and lived very well, so could have my father and his father before him. But we didn't. I work hard for my family and those who will come after me, just as my ancestors did. when you stop working hard, even 200 year old family fortunes will fail

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    Sorry but I am having trouble connecting the dots. I understood your assertion in post 169 to mean that ‘all the money taken from the SS for general fund must be paid back…all those rich folks…are going to have to pony up’. Meaning that while ALL citizens benefited by the government spending the SS money OVER MANY YEARS, ADMINISTRATIONS AND TAXATION RATES only the ‘rich folks’ must pay it back. Am I misunderstanding your point? If not does that seem fair?



    How should we measure ‘who has benefited most from the "temporary tax cuts"? I presented the difference in the rate cut percentage by these "temporary tax cuts". Would you rather quantify that in dollar amounts? As to who holds the most of the wealth in this country, it has ALWAYS been the upper bracket…obviously so as that is what makes them the upper bracket…

    You ignore the obvious, and the reason for Obama's reelection. Most of the country's wealth has been concentrated at the top. Partly due to both trickle down economics and offshoring American jobs. Both of which have been highly profitable for the wealthy........for those left here without jobs, or minimum wage jobs, not so much. There is simply no where else to get it, except the wealthy, and still have a functioning economy and a public not living on welfare.

    If you read back through the thread you will see where I posted the simple solution to fixing SS for the long term, beyond its 26 year remaining solvency.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    No, it isn't that simple.
    Actually it is very simple. Our trouble is there is a funk that has overtaken Washington over the last 25 years or so. Pandering and posturing by ALL in DC have prevented legislation and governing for fear they may be voted out…and lose their ‘power’.

    1) SS has been plundered for decades and even Obama cut th rate as a form of "payroll tax reduction". SS has not relly dealt with the longer lifespan issue and they better do something soon. As for the money that's been take? I don't know what happens when you steal from yourself. Do you pay yourself back?
    All you say is true. My point to Cat was his presumed assertion that only the rich should ‘pay ourselves back’.

    2) Taxes aren't just a matter of dollars or percentages. A 30% discount on the taxes of the lower incomes doesn't amount to a lot of dollars. On the highest incomes, the percentage is not a definition of the dollars.

    I'd rather pay 40% on a million than 0% on $20,000.00.

    It's a mess, isn't it?
    Yes, I understand your point but mine is more broad. The commonly espoused position has been over tax RATES i.e. percentages thus the comparison in my post. I read recently that the BTC’s since inception reduced revenue from the top bracket something like $800b and $3.7t from the lower brackets (from the CBO or JTC or somewhere). While I understand the vitriol for the ‘rich folks’ commonly exhibited these numbers seem the rich got a FAR smaller break that the others…in dollar amounts.
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You ignore the obvious, and the reason for Obama's reelection. Most of the country's wealth has been concentrated at the top.
    ME IGNORING THE OBVIOUS? Wealth is ALWAYS concentrated at the 'top'. Where else would it be?

    This may help:
    Wealth_distribution_over_time.gif

    As to 'Obama's re-election', yes that was one of the reasons but IMO only a minimal one. IMO the electorate, much the same as the Wis. recall, resisted 'changing captains' and wanted the President to continue his efforts and see if it works out. Uncertainty of the 'genuiness' of Romney also played a factor.
    Last edited by Dickieboy; 12-05-12 at 10:02 PM.
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    ME IGNORING THE OBVIOUS? Wealth is ALWAYS concentrated at the 'top'. Where else would it be?

    As to 'Obama's re-election', yes that was one of the reasons but IMO only a minimal one. IMO the electorate, much the same as the Wis. recall, resisted 'changing captains' and wanted the President to continue his efforts and see if it works out. Uncertainty of the 'genuiness' of Romney also played a factor.
    Interesting you didn't mention the part of my comment I felt was most pertinent to the discussion of SS and why the fix has to come from increasing contributions from the wealthy.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #180
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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that's sort of a silly stereotype. I could have retired at 30 and lived very well, so could have my father and his father before him. But we didn't. I work hard for my family and those who will come after me, just as my ancestors did. when you stop working hard, even 200 year old family fortunes will fail
    I retired at 58....we are living well on a low 6 figure retirement and about $750K in property and savings, no debt. We have more than enough extra to put all 7 grandkids through college if they stay home and go to the local university. Perhaps even enough for graduate school for some of them.
    My ancestors contributed nothing to our success. Family fortunes fail most often by new generations not working as hard as generations.
    I am here to help, but not to guarantee wealth. Wealth is a handicap to most people. It makes them lazy. I hope your kids and grandkids do as well as I hope mine do, but I am not going to worry about the ones that want to coast on Grandpa's money....THAT ain't gonna happen.
    I will pay for education, the rest is on them.
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

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