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Thread: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

  1. #161
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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Think some of these through for a change. Putting these people into manufacturing goods for the country to consume is a death sentence for their jobs. One of the reason defense costs so much is we spend a lot to keep americans employed. If these companies had to compete with foreign manufacturers like China without guaranteed military contracts they would have the same trouble every other American manufacturer has. The jobs would be outsourced for cheap labor and the americans would be out of work. this is because you don't need to pay american salaries around the world. Overinflated salaries do not work in a world market full of cheapo labor, and when automation is making manufacturing jobs require less and less human work hours.

    What needs to be done is we need jobs here at home. There is a solution. it is called infrastructure development. there are a ton of projects that would make jobs that have to be done here; A new electrical smart grid, medical care for all, high speed rail networks, and high speed data networks. All of those things create jobs here. If we wanted to we could even retool those manufacturing jobs and require the US make the needed items here at home to provide even more jobs. this is not just a matter of the jobs we hire directly for. More jobs means more demand for goods which means increases in every sector of our economy. republicans blew it for us when we had an opportunity to get government healthcare for everyone. Imagine all the jobs that would have been created to deal with the demand for medicine that would have increased by 10s of millions of customers. You would not just need doctors. You would need nurses, orderlies, janitors, receptionists, accountants, record keepers, computer professionals, computers, construction of new facilities, maintenance people, drivers to get cripples, homecare people, and so many others. That was jobs and all we had to do was to kill off the insurance company CEOs. Oh, but that is socialism and jobs are evil.


    Another idea you don't think through. those subsidies are there for a reason. It is because the free market doesn't like farmers very much. You are a farmer. Every year you have bills and expenses, so every year you have to make money. You are like every american and you want the most you can get so you farm your land and sell your goods. Unfortunately we don't need all of those goods here in america. We have more farmland than we need. I know that sounds amazing, but it is true. So as every farmer wants to make the most they farm the most of their land creating a huge oversupply that drives their prices down. meanwhile they trash out their land which needs time to recover every few years from the crops. So we have 2 things this system creates. poor farmers who cannot get value from their crops, and a dustbowl.The reason these subsidies are there is because it actually helps farmers to survive and allows land to have time to recover it's nutrients for plants. Farming is a renewable resource, but it does take time to renew the land.

    Under a system of socialism we could use the land by need rather than greed and the farmers would not have to worry. So we create a sort of capitalist socialism which I admit does not work very well. There are certain systems which work much better under design and not by capitalism. Farming would seem to be one of them.



    Again, you are not thinking of the reality. you have a system which is taking in money. Government and others see that income and want it, but it already has a purpose. one of the problems is that through things like investment and banking they figure out a way to get that money. They allow that money to be raided for other projects under the promise it will be paid back with interest. Sounds like a great idea on the surface to allow idle money to work for the economy and for SS to get more return than normal. the problem arises in that those loans and investments don't end up getting paid back. Social security should not be touched. privatising retirement has also failed because the way they do it is to form that future retirement money into other investments which are supposed to be good investments and as people found out they were selling them toxic loans the banks didn't want to get stuck owning.


    the problem with that idea is the people who medicare covers are not employed. The money for that comes from the present workers to cover the retired people. You cannot get more money from people who live on a income based on a finite savings. What really needs to be done is a reform int he medical industry. medical costs in all areas are way out of control, and then you pile on an insurance company who is giving money out to shareholders and executives and the problem gets even worse.


    private for profit health insurance companies are one of the huge problems with the medical industry. obama took a good step in forcing them to pay out most of their money to their customers. I think it should either be made into a government run and provided system, or at least toss it into the NFP category and remove investors and high paid corporate executives from it.
    We can't compete with china because they artificially hold down prices. That won't last forever, there have already been reports out of companies being fined if they raise prices, well input costs are going up, at some point they will not be able to produce goods without losing money and will stop producing... Their real estate bubble which makes places like Miami and Las Vegas look like nothing will pop. China will turn into the same fate of Japan... Just to assume we can't compete is absurd, though. The defense spending will not be reduced unless we find other ways of providing jobs in these states with these funds that are not one or two year jobs like infrastructure spending.

    Have you seen what have happened to the price of commodities lately... Please tell me you are joking on this... Further there are people who benefit who never were going to be farmers in the first place...

    Insurance costs are an issue, there are a few things that need to change, 1 Obesity (one of the major drivers for cost in the US) 2. Liability for doctors. 3. Cost of becoming a doctor. But to say that the government can reform the cost of the medical industry is laughable, health care costs have gone up far less then the cost of government...

  2. #162
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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Without a cat, you can not have a full life but still it looks like you are also "rich" by my definition.


    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Same here, except for the cats....been there, won't do it again since we travel a lot now.
    Rich to me is based on having all our needs covered, and money left for some fun.

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by RLWSNOOK View Post
    Social security has been raided of it's funds, it has been given treasuries to replace them... There is no "cash" in the bank. And the government is only paying interest on the treasuries. The government just paying the money back is fine, but that will just mean they will have to add more debt to do so. So yes Social security adds to our debt, and has been adding to debt since 2010...
    Something about this is not right. The current debt +/-$16t includes intragovernmental debt (SS treasuries). If we borrow from other sources (sell new treasuries) to repay the SS trust fund (or fund current benefits) our total liabilities do not change but who owns them does. You CAN however claim that the dollars we borrow today to repay those SS dollars spent in the past are not equal (from inflation).

    This is what was confusing last year when the President, on CBS, stated that he was unsure if the SS checks could go out due to hitting the debt ceiling. ANY monies in the treasury could have been used to purchase back the SS treasuries thus reducing the debt and not exceding the debt ceiling. Even if the money was borrowed it would have been to offset previous debt and had no net effect on the debt (as stated above). Seemed like a scare tactic to me, watch for it again during these negotiations.
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    Something about this is not right. The current debt +/-$16t includes intragovernmental debt (SS treasuries). If we borrow from other sources (sell new treasuries) to repay the SS trust fund (or fund current benefits) our total liabilities do not change but who owns them does. You CAN however claim that the dollars we borrow today to repay those SS dollars spent in the past are not equal (from inflation).

    This is what was confusing last year when the President, on CBS, stated that he was unsure if the SS checks could go out due to hitting the debt ceiling. ANY monies in the treasury could have been used to purchase back the SS treasuries thus reducing the debt and not exceding the debt ceiling. Even if the money was borrowed it would have been to offset previous debt and had no net effect on the debt (as stated above). Seemed like a scare tactic to me, watch for it again during these negotiations.
    I don't believe the numbers available to the public include the interest owed, so I would think that the public debt that would need to be tendered to materialize the SS trust fund would be greater than the existing debt limit.

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Employment grew by 10 million jobs during Bush's terms. Thats not dismal. It actually the same rate of growth as during Clintons term.

    The answer is that 42 million jobs were created under Democratic presidents, and 24 million under Republicans. You can check out the chart here. The champion of course is Clinton, with 20.8 million under Bberg’s numbers. Then comes Reagan at 14.7. Then come Johnson and Carter (yep, Carter). Then Nixon. And so on.

    George W. Bush? The private sector lost 600,000 jobs. Imagine. In eight years, he did not create a single job. Obama is now in positive territory to the tune of 40,000, so even though Dubya handed him the biggest economic catastrophe in 80 years, he at least is in the black.Anyway. The numbers are amazing. And it gets even better. Bloomberg’s Bob Drummond also counted up the number of public-sector jobs created in the respective 23 and 28 years. Results: Federal, state, and local government payrolls grew by 7.1 million under Republicans, and 6.3 million under Democrats.

    So drink this in: Private-sector job growth is massively greater under Democrats, and it’s Republicans who’ve increased the public tit.
    Private Jobs Increase More With Democrats in White House - Bloomberg
    Last edited by iguanaman; 12-05-12 at 03:41 PM.

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    untitled.JPG

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Thank you for your opinion!
    You are welcome! Too bad you didn't listen when I told you who the majority of people were going to vote in as President!



    Did you miss the part where you were supposed to provide any evidence of your claims?
    "a quick refresher. Romney’s tax plan proposes to cut tax rates by 20 percent. That would cost trillions of dollars, and mean a particularly big tax cut for the rich."

    Weekly Address: Obama Continues Push for ‘Middle-class’ Tax Cut Extension

    Obama Wins Re-Election With Romney Defeated in Key States
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Horribly dishonest presentation. Any reading of context of McCain's comment could see that the "100 years" comment was relating it to things like Germany or Japan or other locations where we have a lasting presence through military bases. This is the exact same thing the Obama Administration TRIED to actually get to occur in Iraq as well but failed whe nthey couldn't negotiate a SOFA. The attempt to present McCain's comment as if he was seeking to have an active, lasting, war type presence there rather than simply a standard post war setup, as well as trying to act like that's different than what the Obama Administratoin themselves attempted to get, is pure sophistry.

    McCain is still whinning about the President's withdrawal of troops from Iraq!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by RLWSNOOK View Post
    Social security has been raided of it's funds, it has been given treasuries to replace them... There is no "cash" in the bank. And the government is only paying interest on the treasuries. The government just paying the money back is fine, but that will just mean they will have to add more debt to do so. So yes Social security adds to our debt, and has been adding to debt since 2010...

    Now as for this plan the first and major issue is that the government doesn't have the money to pay back more than the interest alone let alone the principal of social security, further, it was calculated by the CBO and many other sources, that social security would not take out more than was paid in until 2016... It started to 6 years prior to that.

    Now I don't know the breakdown of how much we pay in vs pay out and if the interest alone on the treasuries will be able to cover that, but my guess is this 26 year figure is very very optimistic...

    As for medicare, yes private insurance would increase the cost to the consumer because there are no plans in the world that make sense that you pay in 30 dollars and get out 100 dollars, there is universal health care, and there are programs that just don't add up... Now I'm with you that health care costs are high, one of the major reasons of that is the obesity epidemic in the US. Another is a lack of doctors and more specifically the cost of going to medical school. Another is the crazy liability a doctor has, and the way the legal system works. Doctors are forced to run a bunch of unnecessary tests just to cover themselves from liability, these add a huge cost. People expect doctors to be perfect and able to fix everything and if they don't they expect to be able to sue and win millions, this is absurd.

    Needless to say, there are a bunch of problems with our entitlements, which need to be addressed.

    All the money taken from SS for general fund use must be paid back through the general fund. All those rich folks that benefited from low taxes while SS was paying for things are going to have pony up. Its as simple as that. Easy fix!

    With health care costs its as I said before, that will only be addressed when we eventually upgrade to UHC as every other industrialized nation has done.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Without a cat, you can not have a full life but still it looks like you are also "rich" by my definition.
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. R.A. Heinlein



    everything we have is paid for, the kids college degrees are paid for, and if things keep going as they are, the 7 grandkids will have their degrees paid for.
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