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Thread: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The only problem with your theory, is that the reality for the majority of Americans is much different.
    Thank you for your opinion!

    Did you miss the election campaign where one side promised to increase tax cuts for the wealthy and the other side promised to build a strong middle class as the way to make the nation prosper?
    Did you miss the part where you were supposed to provide any evidence of your claims?

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    McCain said we would be there for 100 years
    Horribly dishonest presentation. Any reading of context of McCain's comment could see that the "100 years" comment was relating it to things like Germany or Japan or other locations where we have a lasting presence through military bases. This is the exact same thing the Obama Administration TRIED to actually get to occur in Iraq as well but failed whe nthey couldn't negotiate a SOFA. The attempt to present McCain's comment as if he was seeking to have an active, lasting, war type presence there rather than simply a standard post war setup, as well as trying to act like that's different than what the Obama Administratoin themselves attempted to get, is pure sophistry.

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Horribly dishonest presentation. Any reading of context of McCain's comment could see that the "100 years" comment was relating it to things like Germany or Japan or other locations where we have a lasting presence through military bases. This is the exact same thing the Obama Administration TRIED to actually get to occur in Iraq as well but failed whe nthey couldn't negotiate a SOFA. The attempt to present McCain's comment as if he was seeking to have an active, lasting, war type presence there rather than simply a standard post war setup, as well as trying to act like that's different than what the Obama Administratoin themselves attempted to get, is pure sophistry.

    and just how do you think a continuing US presence in Iraq would be similar to our long time presence in various European nations? Was there, is there - any guerilla actions in any of the nations that hosted US forces following WWII?

    The breaking point on the SoFA negotiation was Iraq's demand that US troops come under Iraqi civil law if they committed a criminal offense while off duty.

    As long as you have the three factions in Iraq fighting each other, it would never be a "standard post war setup"
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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Actually there is no correlation between tax cuts for the wealthy and employment. Bush had dismal job creation despite both cuts he made during his terms. Clinton created more jobs than both Bush's AND Reagan put together and he RAISED taxes on the wealthy.
    Employment grew by 10 million jobs during Bush's terms. Thats not dismal. It actually the same rate of growth as during Clintons term.

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Well, Im just glad to see that democrats being honest about caring more for class warfare than actually solving anything. They know raising taxes on the rich wont put a dent in the deficit or debt. Which is why they talk about fairness, not financial stability or good economics.

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Interestingly the last time the US was in really good shape those were the tax rates on the rich. Things started to go downhill when we started lowering the tax rates on the rich. I think it was kennedy who lowered the rate from the 90s to the 70s. 20 years later the tax rate on the rich is even lower and bingo we are in a recession that keeps coming back over and over again.

    The fact is that a higher rate will not cause the starvation of the wealthy. they wills till make much more money every year than any middle or poor class person. The fact is the so called redistribution of wealth creates consumer demand. trickle down economics is complete fail where push up economics raises the status of everyone including the rich. There is a reason for this. poor people who get money consume. That consumption makes demand. that demand means a need for more production and distribution. That means rich people hire or new businesses come about to fill the need. trickle down fails because the rich get the money, they don't have a reason to hire because there is no demand, and they keep the money. Less demand actually means it is harder on small businesses to get customers, and the large businesses own everything which makes monopolies. All of that is terrible for growth, and it causes massive stagnation because the one percent cannot create enough demand to drive business forward so they just end up buying weak companies and absorbing their wealth while spitting out nothing.

    But you spend the rest of your life trying to bribe the rich for a piece of their pie through tax cuts and corporate welfare. They have you scared and ignorant and that is just where they want you. They give you false promise of a great life if only you get that expensive college degree, and then they don't hire you. Really what is the chain? Oh if only you had a college degree, oh we want a 4 year degree, oh now it is a masters, oh don't you have a PhD, sorry we just hired that guy he is the nephew of the CEO sorry. You are really gullible, and what is sad is that the people who know are trying to protect you from your own ignorance and poor election choices. But what do I expect from a person in a state who went for rick scott and alan west. Yeah, there were a pair of honest and good people. One is involved in felony medicare fraud, and the other was kicked out of the military for being really stupid. Do you know how stupid you have to be to get kicked out of the military for being too stupid to be cannon fodder?
    The rich were paying less taxes in the 50s, your golden age, than they do now.

    The share of income taxes paid by top earners has increased as well. As Figure 2 shows, the share paid by the top 20 percent of households was 94.1 percent in 2009, just shy of the record high of 94.6 percent in 2008. This is up from 64.7 percent in 1979.
    CBO Report Shows Increasing Redistribution in the Tax Code Despite No Long-term Trend in Income Inequality | Tax Foundation


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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Honestly, I've always felt sorry for the ultra-rich. No peace and quiet, dressing up all the time and faking smiles, choosing which cr to drive today and think about your yacht and if you should pick up a mansion in Hong Kong. All your "friends" are either as detached as you are or really just taking part in the long term mooch. I knew one ultra-rich guy who owned a casino in Laas Vegas. He traveled with bodyguards. What fun.

    I think you and the TurtleMan are clashing over whatever rich is. Lots of people are rich. They have a house, a car, cool toys, vacations and plenty of hard work. They're NOT the filthy rich though. Those guys have undue influence over our politicians and our society. For the most part, a large portion of the PROPOSED tax change will fall on them dollar wise and they'll only have a few billion left. Oh, the HORROR.

    Also, rich is in the mind of the beholder. I view myself as rich. I have a paid for house, car, cats, a source of enough income and some money in the bank. If I won the lottery, my lifestyle wouldn't change one iota.
    Same here, except for the cats....been there, won't do it again since we travel a lot now.
    Rich to me is based on having all our needs covered, and money left for some fun.
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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Living for how many toys bragging rights whatever you can get......must suck. I honestly feel soory for those people.
    There are several very rich in my immediate neighborhood....here in UT and in AZ. They tend to isolate themselves, like they are afraid someone might ask them for something. One I know just retired from half ownership of a chevy dealership. A member of our church actually thought that just knowing him was enough to get a big discount on a new vehicle that he could not afford, and financing for it as well. So there is some basis for the self isolation...
    Oracle of Utah
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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    There are several very rich in my immediate neighborhood....here in UT and in AZ. They tend to isolate themselves, like they are afraid someone might ask them for something. One I know just retired from half ownership of a chevy dealership. A member of our church actually thought that just knowing him was enough to get a big discount on a new vehicle that he could not afford, and financing for it as well. So there is some basis for the self isolation...

    Thats not what I was really talking about.

    I grew in a part of Dallas often refered to as the bubble. Dick Cheney for a time was one of our neighbors.

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    Re: GOP makes $2.2 Trillion Counteroffer to Obama - includes revenue increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I agree with you completely there, with the realization that it is just not going to happen until our society evolves more than it has to this point.



    While this is only $1 billiion a year, I agree that policies like this which was are not there to encourage a positive outcome should be eliminated. I wonder why this, or any suggestions to cuts spending was not included in the GOP counter offer to the President. Have you actually read the GOP proposal (4 page letter), and the complete lack of any specificity?





    "Social Security isn't responsible for the federal deficit. Just the opposite. Until last year Social Security took in more payroll taxes than it paid out in benefits. It lent the surpluses to the rest of the government.

    Now that Social Security has started to pay out more than it takes in, Social Security can simply collect what the rest of the government owes it. This will keep it fully solvent for the next 26 years. "

    "oday, though, the Social Security payroll tax hits only about 84 percent of total income.

    It went from 90 percent to 84 percent because a larger and larger portion of total income has gone to the top. In 1983, the richest 1 percent of Americans got 11.6 percent of total income. Today the top 1 percent takes in more than 20 percent.

    If we want to go back to 90 percent, the ceiling on income subject to the Social Security tax would need to be raised to $180,000.

    Presto. Social Security's long-term (beyond 26 years from now) problem would be solved."

    Robert Reich: Budget Baloney: Why Social Security Isn't a Problem for 26 Years, and the Best Way to Fix It Permanently



    Health care costs are the problem. Privatizing would only add to the cost for consumers.

    "It is generally agreed that this industry adds 15 to 20 percent to the cost of its premiums to pay for its business overhead and profits, whereas the administrative costs of Medicare are less than 5 percent. "
    Medicare and Private Health Insurance - NYTimes.com



    As shown, SS has an easy fix to make it solvent for the long term. in order to most effectively deal with our health care cost we will eventually have to up grade to UHC as every other industrialized nation has had to do to lower health care costs.
    Social security has been raided of it's funds, it has been given treasuries to replace them... There is no "cash" in the bank. And the government is only paying interest on the treasuries. The government just paying the money back is fine, but that will just mean they will have to add more debt to do so. So yes Social security adds to our debt, and has been adding to debt since 2010...

    Now as for this plan the first and major issue is that the government doesn't have the money to pay back more than the interest alone let alone the principal of social security, further, it was calculated by the CBO and many other sources, that social security would not take out more than was paid in until 2016... It started to 6 years prior to that.

    Now I don't know the breakdown of how much we pay in vs pay out and if the interest alone on the treasuries will be able to cover that, but my guess is this 26 year figure is very very optimistic...

    As for medicare, yes private insurance would increase the cost to the consumer because there are no plans in the world that make sense that you pay in 30 dollars and get out 100 dollars, there is universal health care, and there are programs that just don't add up... Now I'm with you that health care costs are high, one of the major reasons of that is the obesity epidemic in the US. Another is a lack of doctors and more specifically the cost of going to medical school. Another is the crazy liability a doctor has, and the way the legal system works. Doctors are forced to run a bunch of unnecessary tests just to cover themselves from liability, these add a huge cost. People expect doctors to be perfect and able to fix everything and if they don't they expect to be able to sue and win millions, this is absurd.

    Needless to say, there are a bunch of problems with our entitlements, which need to be addressed.

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