Catalonia vote: Early exit polls show region may be on road to independence

[zimmer]

Polls show up to 57 per cent of Catalans would vote yes to independence, a figure that has nearly doubled since the start of Spain's economic crisis in 2008.


Anger over "unfair" tax demands from Madrid have fueled separatist sentiment in the industrious and economically important region, as Spain suffers deep economic crisis and unpopular austerity measures.


Many voters believe the region, which boasts a strong cultural identity and its own language and contributes 20 per cent of Spain's economic output, would fare better economically as an individual state within the European Union.

Catalonia vote: Early exit polls show region may be on road to independence - Telegraph

Oooo... this could be interesting.

I could see north Italy (Sud Tirol) trying the same. Belgium has its French/Flemish problems... All due to one successful segment of the population tired of others thieving their wealth.


Hmmm sounds like Obama and the Libs Parasite Nation.

 

[Rainman05]

Oooo... this could be interesting.

I could see north Italy (Sud Tirol) trying the same. Belgium has its French/Flemish problems... All due to one successful segment of the population tired of others thieving their wealth.


Hmmm sounds like Obama and the Libs Parasite Nation.

You do understand that there are signficant more differences and the context is far more developed than purely economics in the case of Spain/Catalonia... even more so in the case of Belgium and the whole thing becomes hugely complex when discussing Italy.

So no, it is nothing like "libs parasite nation" for so many reasons. First reason being that "liberal" in the US is not the same as "liberal" in Europe.

 

[PeteEU]

Oooo... this could be interesting.

I could see north Italy (Sud Tirol) trying the same. Belgium has its French/Flemish problems... All due to one successful segment of the population tired of others thieving their wealth.


Hmmm sounds like Obama and the Libs Parasite Nation.

You should have waited for the election results.

The fact is the pro-independence parties did win a majority BUT it is no where near as simple as that.

The right wing and governing party pushing for independence lost a number of seats... it was a disaster election for them, while the left wing party also wanting independence doubled it seats. Together they got the majority, but the problem is these two parties can not work together at all..... they hate each other and their views on how to fix the economy are like oil and water.

So the chances of an actual independence vote has gone down considerably because of this.

 

[American]

You should have waited for the election results.

The fact is the pro-independence parties did win a majority BUT it is no where near as simple as that.

The right wing and governing party pushing for independence lost a number of seats... it was a disaster election for them, while the left wing party also wanting independence doubled it seats. Together they got the majority, but the problem is these two parties can not work together at all..... they hate each other and their views on how to fix the economy are like oil and water.

So the chances of an actual independence vote has gone down considerably because of this.

I hope they get independence, I can understand how they're tired of the usual European bull****. I know I am.

 

[PeteEU]

I hope they get independence, I can understand how they're tired of the usual European bull****. I know I am.

You do understand they want independence from Spain not Europe right?

 

[American]

You do understand they want independence from Spain not Europe right?

I sure do, and it appears Spain is following suit with same economic principles that the rest of Europe is failing on.

 

[Grant]

I sure do, and it appears Spain is following suit with same economic principles that the rest of Europe is failing on.

They have economic principles?

 

[PeteEU]

I sure do, and it appears Spain is following suit with same economic principles that the rest of Europe is failing on.

They only copied the GOP policies of the last 20 years.. so that explains a lot.

 

[zimmer]

They only copied the GOP policies of the last 20 years.. so that explains a lot.

Really... ROTFLOL...

I didn't realize the GOP forced a single currency on North America!?
I also didn't realize the GOP was responsible for artificially inflated wages by 30% as in Spain?

I didn't realize Spain was about limited government!

 

[zimmer]

You do understand that there are signficant more differences and the context is far more developed than purely economics in the case of Spain/Catalonia... even more so in the case of Belgium and the whole thing becomes hugely complex when discussing Italy.

So no, it is nothing like "libs parasite nation" for so many reasons. First reason being that "liberal" in the US is not the same as "liberal" in Europe.

You do realize their vote to split has picked up steam during economic duress? You do realize both the Flemish and those of Sud Tirol do not enjoy seeing their wealth pissed away by southern regions?

And this does have a fair bit to do with Parasite Nation in the US. Many who produce are tired of the takers. They are tired of a government that has become omnipresent as in Europe. They are tired of a government that is a conduit to theft and redistribution.

So you see... there are huge parallels.

 

[Grant]

You do realize their vote to split has picked up steam during economic duress? You do realize both the Flemish and those of Sud Tirol do not enjoy seeing their wealth pissed away by southern regions?

And this does have a fair bit to do with Parasite Nation in the US. Many who produce are tired of the takers. They are tired of a government that has become omnipresent as in Europe. They are tired of a government that is a conduit to theft and redistribution.

So you see... there are huge parallels.

It's odd that a people who have historically fought against big government, and should be aware of the tragedies it often brings, have now chosen to embrace it. How do you get away from it once its there?

 

[obvious Child]

You do understand that there are signficant more differences and the context is far more developed than purely economics in the case of Spain/Catalonia... even more so in the case of Belgium and the whole thing becomes hugely complex when discussing Italy.

So no, it is nothing like "libs parasite nation" for so many reasons. First reason being that "liberal" in the US is not the same as "liberal" in Europe.

Wanna bet that neither Zimmer or Grant have any real understanding of Spain's problems?

These people view Europe as a monolithic bloc suffering from the exact same problem. Anyone with a basic cursory understanding of Ireland, the UK, France, Germany, Greece, Portugal and Spain knows that they are essentially full of ****. Sometimes it's easier for certain people to simply think of areas and people they dislike as monoliths rather then actually educate themselves about the topics they discuss.

 

[zimmer]

It's odd that a people who have historically fought against big government, and should be aware of the tragedies it often brings, have now chosen to embrace it. How do you get away from it once its there?

"and should be aware of the tragedies it... brings..."
Parasite Nation feeds off ignorance... and those who believe Socialist Utopia has merely had poor managers to date.

Once upon a time they had a saying... Question Authority. Now they have created a machine with propagandists (journ-O-lists) that only question the half they hate, and covers for incompetence on Parasite Nation's side.

The proponents of Parasite Nation are the definition of greedy. They implement want failed systems, those that take from others, to give to them.. and expect future generations to pick up the tab.

It's retarded.

 

[zimmer]

Wanna bet that neither Zimmer or Grant have any real understanding of Spain's problems?

These people view Europe as a monolithic bloc suffering from the exact same problem. Anyone with a basic cursory understanding of Ireland, the UK, France, Germany, Greece, Portugal and Spain knows that they are essentially full of ****. Sometimes it's easier for certain people to simply think of areas and people they dislike as A very nice post that monoliths rather then actually educate themselves about the topics they discuss.

A nice post that said... absolutely nothing.

Do you know the problems of the Flemish and Sud Tirol? Do you know there is a Sud Tirol? Do you know why these folks are similar in mentality to those in Catalonia who voted for independence.

BTW... been to Bremen lately?

 

[zimmer]

.....

 

[Rainman05]

You cannot put them all in the same pot.

Catalonia is an unique example. Why? Because Catalonia, and Catalonians were not ALWAYS part of spain. They are a people of a different cultural background than the spanish. hell, even the spanish in the north are somewhat different then the spanish in the south.

Currently, the catalonian people are not in the same financial woes as the rest of spain and economical independence is a way to make sure that they won't be in the same pit when all debt hell break loose.

But that is not the only concern. The underlying root cause of this movement is ethnic too. Like the Basque region whom it too is pretty financially solid but is home to an unique people whose cultural and genetic makeup differ them from the rest of the spanish, Catalonians want autonomy and independence because when your family is suffering or is being threatened, you don't have the mindset to think about everybody else. That, combined with the failure of the policies in the spanish government and the leading political class makes this whole issue gain weight and makes segregation somewhat more desirable. You need to understand the history of Spain too to get a better understanding of this. Catalonia is pretty big... its like 1/6th or 1/7th of Spain. It can manage itself quite well. It is almost as big as Portugal.

Moreover, if before, that being centuries before, was part of another nation.

Moreover, Catalonia is suffering because of the stupid immigration policies of the Spanish government. It doesn't want to take part in that bull**** anymore and since the spanish government won't do anything about it, defying its people for the sake of appeasing marxist bureaucrats in the EU parliament and politicians therefore ensuring their political careers, it wants to take matters into its own hands.

Now. I am not a fan of countries splitting themselves apart. But you cannot glue something that is different together and call it one. You cannot take multiple people of multiple cultures and ethnic background and say they are the same and hope it sticks. It doesn't work. It leads to civil strife and desires of independence. An economic problem may deepen the resentment enough for people to start taking action because when all is good, people are numb. It takes problems to wake people to the reality of the situation. Europe is the most diverse continent on the planet with the most different people whom have created their own different and amazing cultures which defines them. The EU, and imperliastic tendencies in general defy this basic understanding of humanity and hence, it causes problems.

I could go on and on but I cannot possibly cover the full extend of the problem in spain, let alone the problem in other places of Europe.

Italy if you are so fond of bringing it up is also an interesting example. However, to delve into the history of Italy and see its cause for their separatist movement means to turn many unpleasent rocks and destroy a whole array of preconceptions about things which most people are not yet ready to accept.

 

[PeteEU]

Really... ROTFLOL...

I didn't realize the GOP forced a single currency on North America!?

Actually it has...... dont you know your own history? What party was Lincoln a member off and what did he do to people that wanted to leave the union and have their own currency?

I also didn't realize the GOP was responsible for artificially inflated wages by 30% as in Spain?

Wages in Spain are not artificially inflated by 30%. They are still lower than most of western Europe. But saying that, wage growth has been fueled by a housing bubble, and the housing bubble is built on the same principles as the US housing bubble.

I didn't realize Spain was about limited government!

Neither is the GOP. Government tends to grow during GOP leadership and decline during Democratic leadership.

 

[Grant]

They only copied the GOP policies of the last 20 years.. so that explains a lot.

Of course the GOP did not have control over policies for the past 20 years but, in any case. which policies are you referring to?

 

[PeteEU]

Of course the GOP did not have control over policies for the past 20 years but, in any case. which policies are you referring to?

LOL so you are saying that deregulation, lazzie-faire market regulation (if any) and giving banks and big business a free run... is not GOP policy since basically Reagan?

 

[zimmer]

Actually it has...... dont you know your own history? What party was Lincoln a member off and what did he do to people that wanted to leave the union and have their own currency?

Read what I had written again. There is an operative word there... find it.

Wages in Spain are not artificially inflated by 30%. They are still lower than most of western Europe. But saying that, wage growth has been fueled by a housing bubble, and the housing bubble is built on the same principles as the US housing bubble.

Wages in Spain are/have been inflated 20 to 30%. I can't find the German article, but it's a problem. I'll find it eventually and post it.

Neither is the GOP. Government tends to grow during GOP leadership and decline during Democratic leadership.

There have been some who have not been fiscally responsible.

It would have been wiser to let the Left screw the country badly than to get along and share a hair of credit for financial mismanagement. Today we could point clearly and say... you Socilaists farked it up. We still can, but we end up fighting the BS like you posted above.

The Left uses this tactic at every turn... and then claim the right didn't go far enough and they'll simply correct that another day... just as they plan to do with ObamaKare.

There is no winning when dealing with the Socialists. Compromise is defeat. ... and the bastards never tell you their ultimate goals... fact is... they keep moving the goal posts.

When the goal posts and game has moved to the latrine... where the western world finds itself now... they want even more power and more government. The fools that farked us in the first place with their senseless PONZI schemes.

But don't call it socialism... I wonder... when will the Germans alter the term Sozialmarktwirtschaft? ROTFLOL...

 

[Grant]

LOL so you are saying that deregulation, lazzie-faire market regulation (if any) and giving banks and big business a free run... is not GOP policy since basically Reagan?

It's not about what I am saying, it's about what you said,

You said

They only copied the GOP policies of the last 20 years.. so that explains a lot.

And I responded with

Of course the GOP did not have control for the past 20 years but, in any case. which policies are you referring to?

Do you acknowledge that the GOP has not been in power for the last 20 years and can you name the specific policies which you said were copied?

 

[Penderyn]

The great thing about this is that it will begin the shift away from the totally artificial states of western Europe towards a real 'Europe of the Nations'. Good luck, Catalunya!

 

[PeteEU]

Read what I had written again. There is an operative word there... find it.

In other words you cant admit you forgot about your civil war.. okay..

Wages in Spain are/have been inflated 20 to 30%. I can't find the German article, but it's a problem. I'll find it eventually and post it.

I know the theory and the article... but it is the housing bubble that caused the inflation of the wages. The housing bubble was caused in large part due to cheap credit and a lazzie-fair regulatory system... run and set up in large part by the Conservative party, who's main policies are a mirror image of the GOP. There is no doubt that wages in Spain need to go down, but that will mean prices need to go down as well.. and that aint gonna happen any time soon. And in the end, if wages did go down along with prices, it would threaten the German industrial machine big time, since jobs would move to Spain because Spain is not only the gate way to central and south America, but also has a high educated society compared to other "low wage" areas. It also has the infrastructure needed.

There have been some who have not been fiscally responsible.

That is a freaking understatement. Reagan, Bush Sr and Bush Jr put together about 2/3s of the US debt load... Add to that places like Alaska and other red states who are leeches on American society, and you betcha the GOP has been fiscally irresponsible for the last 30 years. Long gone are the days of Ike.

It would have been wiser to let the Left screw the country badly than to get along and share a hair of credit for financial mismanagement. Today we could point clearly and say... you Socilaists farked it up. We still can, but we end up fighting the BS like you posted above.

Dude, you do realize that most countries in Europe have had conservative aka right leaning governments for the last decade plus pretty much? That they followed the GOP lead US economic policies for the last 2 decades and look where that got them?

The Left uses this tactic at every turn... and then claim the right didn't go far enough and they'll simply correct that another day... just as they plan to do with ObamaKare.

The right and you are in denial. Not once have I heard anyone on the right admitting that it was their failed policies that got the US and the world into the mess it is in now. Not once.

There is no winning when dealing with the Socialists. Compromise is defeat. ... and the bastards never tell you their ultimate goals... fact is... they keep moving the goal posts.

Compromise is an alien word for the American right... and it seems you.

When the goal posts and game has moved to the latrine... where the western world finds itself now... they want even more power and more government. The fools that farked us in the first place with their senseless PONZI schemes.

The only PONZI schemes there have been are on wall street and run by the rights and the GOPs masters.. the banks. And the GOP still cant admit that they got it wrong and it was their masters that screwed the rest of the world over and we all .. well not the wealthy of course... but the real people, aka the poor and middle class, had to bail their asses out.

But don't call it socialism... I wonder... when will the Germans alter the term Sozialmarktwirtschaft? ROTFLOL...

So now you are making fun of the German language ?

 

[obvious Child]

A nice post that said... absolutely nothing.

So more or less like all of your posts. Got it.

Do you know the problems of the Flemish and Sud Tirol? Do you know there is a Sud Tirol? Do you know why these folks are similar in mentality to those in Catalonia who voted for independence.

BTW... been to Bremen lately?

Hey, I'm not the one arguing that Europe's problems are the same everywhere like you are. Spain's issues are vastly different from Greece's or Ireland's. Only a fool argues that Europe has a singular problem.

 

[Grant]

So more or less like all of your posts. Got it. Hey, I'm not the one arguing that Europe's problems are the same everywhere like you are. Spain's issues are vastly different from Greece's or Ireland's. Only a fool argues that Europe has a singular problem.

I doubt anyone has said Europe has a singular problem, in fact the entire mess is riddled with problems. And, as usual, they blame their problems on the Americans.

All the adults seem to have emigrated.