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Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

winston53660 said:
I doubt most of the Native Indians cared about jesus. I know my Sioux friend still follows and believes in her Indian ways.
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This has nothing literally to do with native Americans at all. My native American relatives are Christian by the way as well as many others, so your point is bunk either way.
 
Blackdog said:
This has nothing literally to do with native Americans at all. My native American relatives are Christian by the way as well as many others, so your point is bunk either way.
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BS if it is bunk. Not every body believes like you. And 200 years ago not everybody believed.
 
Blackdog said:
I agree, this however does not change the reality of the history behind it. I mean upwards of 90% of the US citizenry and still around 70% today was or is identified as Christian (not including native Americans obviously) it is part of our history. It is not a lie or exaggeration, it just is what it is. I admit she probably meant it to be some kind of all encompassing statement about the holidays and she would be wrong in that way. Historically however, it is nothing insulting at all.
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Do you not see your double standard? You believe people shouldn't be "insulted" by a sign that implies the only reason for the holiday season is Jesus, even those who believe in religions that existed and celebrated the season before Christianity existed, yet it is ok to be insulted by the atheist signs. I think it is thin-skinned to be insulted by either, but I accept that different people would be insulted by both. Both sides were being petty, I won't deny that, but it is still not the major issue of this. The issue is that the Christians who are suing for their nativity scene appear to be blaming the atheists for them not getting to put up their nativity scene in the public park but it is much more complicated than that. No matter what messages were on those other displays (excluding things that actually would be reasonably vulgar or offensive) they won those spots fair and square and no one's rights were being trampled by banning all unattended displays. And it was the fault of the vandals and the complexity of the system itself. The religious who want the nativity scene are more than free to find another space to put it in and likely it would be better off on private property anyways.
 
winston53660 said:
I think it is great the atheist want to share their message of Peace. Christians do not have exclusive rights to it and should practice some peace love and understanding themesleves.
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It was not Christians who interfered with an atheist tradition.
 
Blackdog said:
This has nothing literally to do with native Americans at all. My native American relatives are Christian by the way as well as many others, so your point is bunk either way.
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The native Americans were "converted" when the settlers got here. It was basically convert for food/clothing/necessities or struggle and die off. Many native Americans I know either still believe their old ways or have gone back to the old ways. They are starting to go back to their own beliefs. Even in Hawaii, there are a lot of young native Hawaiians who have rejected Christianity that their parents taught them and who have gone back to worshiping the old Hawaiian gods. I had a boss who was in this situation while I was there.
 
UtahBill said:
are you suggesting that only christians are capable of peace and love? or spreading the message of peace and love? or own the concept?
IIRC, hippies used the peace and love message a lot back in the 60's...
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I don;t see how that relates to my response to the article.
 
winston53660 said:
BS if it is bunk. Not every body believes like you. And 200 years ago not everybody believed.
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Does not change the fact that most citizens of the US were Christian.
 
Grant said:
It was not Christians who interfered with an atheist tradition.
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Oh poor baby. Atheist expressed their views about the Holidays on PUBLIC land.
 
roguenuke said:
The native Americans were "converted" when the settlers got here. It was basically convert for food/clothing/necessities or struggle and die off. Many native Americans I know either still believe their old ways or have gone back to the old ways. They are starting to go back to their own beliefs. Even in Hawaii, there are a lot of young native Hawaiians who have rejected Christianity that their parents taught them and who have gone back to worshiping the old Hawaiian gods. I had a boss who was in this situation while I was there.
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It has nothing to do with "natives" that were not part of the continental US citizenry. You are now way of course and it has nothing to do historically or factually with my point or post.
 
Blackdog said:
Does not change the fact that most citizens of the US were Christian.
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I doubt 200 hundred years ago when there were many Indian nations they were.

And I know my Sioux friend celebrates the Holidays but still deeply believes in her Indian ways.
 
winston53660 said:
I doubt 200 hundred years ago when there were many Indian nations they were.

And I know my Sioux friend celebrates the Holidays but still deeply believes in her Indian ways.
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Were they US citizens? Oh they weren't? So they have absolutely nothing to do with anything I was talking about now do they. :roll:
 
Blackdog said:
Were they US citizens? Oh they weren't? So they have absolutely nothing to do with anything I was talking about now do they. :roll:
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Well'p now they are even though their ancestors weren't.
 
Blackdog said:
It has nothing to do with "natives" that were not part of the continental US citizenry. You are now way of course and it has nothing to do historically or factually with my point or post.
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Then what was your point?

It seemed as if you were trying to say that native Americans long ago were Christians. They weren't. Even those who chose to be citizens weren't necessarily Christians. The point originally made was that not everyone was Christian or believed the "reason for the season" was Jesus. This would include some native Americans and other groups. Even if they did only account for a small percentage of people, their beliefs still matter.
 
roguenuke said:
Just because something is "tradition" doesn't give it exclusive right to public property.
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Quite right, and doubt anyone is making that claim.

I am not a Christian but still enjoy the spirit of the season, the friendliness of the people, the buying and giving of gifts, the joy in children's eyes, even the carols.

Atheists are really a drag! Why should Christians have all the fun?
 
roguenuke said:
The native Americans were "converted" when the settlers got here. It was basically convert for food/clothing/necessities or struggle and die off. Many native Americans I know either still believe their old ways or have gone back to the old ways. They are starting to go back to their own beliefs. Even in Hawaii, there are a lot of young native Hawaiians who have rejected Christianity that their parents taught them and who have gone back to worshiping the old Hawaiian gods. I had a boss who was in this situation while I was there.
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Yes, we setup schools to convert them.

American Indian Civics Project: Indian Boarding Schools: Tools of Forced Assimilations, 1870 to 1934

American Indian Boarding Schools Haunt Many : NPR

::: American Indians of the Pacific Northwest :::
 
roguenuke said:
Then what was your point?

It seemed as if you were trying to say that native Americans long ago were Christians. They weren't. Even those who chose to be citizens weren't necessarily Christians. The point originally made was that not everyone was Christian or believed the "reason for the season" was Jesus. This would include some native Americans and other groups. Even if they did only account for a small percentage of people, their beliefs still matter.
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Are you people even reading at this point? We were talking about back in history, the history of the US, not the continent of the America's. We were talking about the roots of Jesus and Christmas.

I weep for the future.

You people, yes all of you. Are taking a few words out of context and trying to make a point that is completely irrelevant and in the long run stupid, as it has nothing to do with anything I said or was pointing out.
 
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Oh great. Thanksgiving is over and I forgot it's time for the bull**** "War on Christmas" crusader rants.
 
Grant said:
Quite right, and doubt anyone is making that claim.

I am not a Christian but still enjoy the spirit of the season, the friendliness of the people, the buying and giving of gifts, the joy in children's eyes, even the carols.

Atheists are really a drag! Why should Christians have all the fun?
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There are plenty who take the fun out of Christmas, atheists, Christians, other faiths. I've known plenty of Christians who would have a cow if people didn't believe Jesus was the most important part of the season. I know people who consider it wrong to teach kids about Santa (lots of all types). I know people who question why some do certain things for Christmas, whether it is a tradition for them or something they just want to try out.

I love Christmas. It is a wonderful time of year, but I don't consider it necessary to be told "reminded" all the time about why others celebrate the season. I love the messages of love and hope and giving. I don't like the messages of exclusivity or disdain or absolutism or mockery, but I also don't see that it is my place to complain as long as everyone is being treated the same in being able to put those or other messages out or not.
 
Blackdog said:
Are you people even reading at this point? We were talking about back in history, the history of the US, not the continent of the America's. We were talking about the roots of Jesus and Christmas.

I weep for the future.

You people, yes all of you. Are taking a few words out of context and trying to make a point that is completely irrelevant and in the long run stupid, as it has nothing to do with anything I said or was pointing out.
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Native Americans were part of the US. And there were groups in the US that were not Christian, even when the US became a country. No matter how small they were, they still mattered. Just because they believed something different than the majority, does not mean their views on why to celebrate the season (or not) should be dismissed.
 
poweRob said:
Oh great. Thanksgiving is over and I forgot it's time for the bull**** "War on Christmas" crusader rants.
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Oh no worries. Instead of the "War on Christmas" it's morphed into a "War on atheists".
 
roguenuke said:
Native Americans were part of the US. And there were groups in the US that were not Christian, even when the US became a country. No matter how small they were, they still mattered. Just because they believed something different than the majority, does not mean their views on why to celebrate the season (or not) should be dismissed.
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Again please point out how this fits into what I was saying or the point I was making in any way? It doesn't, it has nothing to do with it at all.
 
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