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Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

Fine. They exercised their right to free speech. Why would Conservatives be bothered by that? I thought you guys were all about personal freedoms and such.

Maybe it's a dick move. Still their right, and it still doesn't excuse their sign being vandalized, most likely by a "Christian," despite your claims that they did it themselves.

Threads like this remind me of why I dislike the Republican Party. They talk all about their freedom of speech, then scream like a banshee when someone has a dissenting opinion.

I notice that you are willing to blame a Christian anyway even though there is no evidence to support it, but that's OK, isn't it? Because that is NOT a protected group. Now, if a nativity scene were to be vandalized by an atheist, I imagine you'd be singing a different tune, wouldn't you? I'm going to play your card here and assume you would. And yes, it is a dick move. threads like this remind be why I hate idiots. Everybody has a right to be one I suppose, but some elevate it to an art form.
 
Who started it? The rest is all true, and now no one gets anything. It was moronic and there is no defense for that.

It's important to remember the facts here - there were various spaces and the city held a lottery drawing to determine who got them. The atheists won a few spaces which they used to spread their ideas. Christians got their panties in a wad and committed acts of vandalism. That's what led to the city deciding to end the practice.

If whoever vandalized the atheist displays had displayed a little Christianity, it would still be going on. That's the moron who wrecked it all for everyone - someone who couldn't deal with the fact that someone had a different point of view.
 
I notice that you are willing to blame a Christian anyway even though there is no evidence to support it, but that's OK, isn't it? Because that is NOT a protected group. Now, if a nativity scene were to be vandalized by an atheist, I imagine you'd be singing a different tune, wouldn't you? I'm going to play your card here and assume you would. And yes, it is a dick move. threads like this remind be why I hate idiots. Everybody has a right to be one I suppose, but some elevate it to an art form.

Strawman much? You can't actually argue with anything I said, so you're going to "assume" that I'm just some atheist Libloon like them all?

That seems to be going around.
 
I did not say anything was illegal, anti-constitutional etc was done by atheists. Nice try though. They were clearly wrong. Now no one can show or display anything because of dickheads who don't want good will and cheer. They want to further a political agenda fostered in hate

Except it wasn't the atheists who got the displays canceled. It was the folk who vandalized the atheist's display. So your anger is misplaced.
 
Strawman much? You can't actually argue with anything I said, so you're going to "assume" that I'm just some atheist Libloon like them all?

That seems to be going around.

It's not just this post rocketman, your history points to it. There are others on here that I generally disagree with but they do occasionally make good points. You however...
 
So then what are you warranting against? People displaying their ideas on a sign? Look buddy, if that piece of **** NYC anti-Muslim ad got support on this forum from such right winger religious members as:











Then this should have gotten the same response. However, it hasn't because you have served as the theists own little Trojan horse by getting on some holier than thou crusade against the atheists who did nothing illegal or even REMOTELY questionable. End of the story is:

1. Atheists did nothing wrong.
2. Theists vandalized their sign because they got their feelings hurt.

No matter how you cut it, at no point should the theists be cut any slack simply because they got their feelings hurt with words. As a matter of fact they should be rightfully laughed at as their actions ensured that not even their message would get a forum to be heard on.

:lamo

Hatuey appears to think that I'm a "theist." He does have some wild imagination.
 
I am not arguing about what it was shut down. My argument is about the timing of the message. I completely understand why the city shut it down, but to put all of the blame on the vandalism is wrong.

Why is it wrong to put the blame where it lies? My bet is that if the vandalism hadn't happened, the displays would have remained up, both sides would have had their say, and a week from now nobody would have remembered the incident.

I have more of an issue with Westboro, I think they are despicable in their message, but I wonder what would have happened if they had bought the spaces.

City cancelled due to vandalism and not wanting to deal with the BS.
 
And Christians get there panties in a wad over atheist wishing people a happy holiday so much so they vandalize

I see malice in what the atheists are trying to do. There's no hate involved in putting up a nativity scene. No doubt you'll try to find some though.
 
This is just such a non issue. If religious organizations were smart (I know...I said IF) they would simply unite and promote a commercial free Christmas. Keep your religion Free Xmases and Seasons Greetings...just buy NOTHING. Christmas isnt about the commercial enterprise of the Holyday so stop feeding the beast.

Watch how fast things change.
 
I see malice in what the atheists are trying to do. There's no hate involved in putting up a nativity scene. No doubt you'll try to find some though.

the hate manifested itself in the vandalism of all the exhibits ... well, all excepting the nativity scene
apparently that's what Jesus would do [/s]
 
I see malice in what the atheists are trying to do. There's no hate involved in putting up a nativity scene. No doubt you'll try to find some though.

And there is no hate in atheist wishing people a happy holiday.
 
It's not just this post rocketman, your history points to it. There are others on here that I generally disagree with but they do occasionally make good points. You however...

So you're going to add to it by making a charge you can't support? Let's see some proof that I support vandalizing nativity scenes. I'm ready when you're ready to prove it.

I would say the same about you, there are in fact, many conservatives who I respect. Not the full of **** ones who construct strawmen, however.
 
And there is no hate in atheist wishing people a happy holiday.

I see no hate in saying "happy holidays" at a place that is purpoesfully meant to be for holiday decorations

I see no hate in saying "happy solstice" at a place that is purpoesfully meant to be for holiday decorations

I don't even see hate in putting up a Santa whose hat says "Reasoned Greetings" at a place that is purpoesfully meant to be for holiday decorations

However I do feel there is a certain amount of hate involved in terms of signs declaring Santa a myth or degrading the notion of religion at a place that is purpoesfully meant to be for holiday decorations.

Going out of your way to try and gather up as many people as possible to purposefully grab as many of the spots as you can, in hopes of hindering others from having a chance to put up holiday decorations, and then to put up signs that have nothing to do with celebrating the holidays at all but rather do nothing but criticize religion and/or outright working to specifically and purposefully spoil peoples holiday seasons is, if not "hateful", completely and utterly dickish.

As said numerous times before...people are free to be dicks

And I'm free to call them colossal flaming dicks
 
I see no hate in saying "happy holidays" at a place that is purpoesfully meant to be for holiday decorations

I see no hate in saying "happy solstice" at a place that is purpoesfully meant to be for holiday decorations

I don't even see hate in putting up a Santa whose hat says "Reasoned Greetings" at a place that is purpoesfully meant to be for holiday decorations

However I do feel there is a certain amount of hate involved in terms of signs declaring Santa a myth or degrading the notion of religion at a place that is purpoesfully meant to be for holiday decorations.

Going out of your way to try and gather up as many people as possible to purposefully grab as many of the spots as you can, in hopes of hindering others from having a chance to put up holiday decorations, and then to put up signs that have nothing to do with celebrating the holidays at all but rather do nothing but criticize religion and/or outright working to specifically and purposefully spoil peoples holiday seasons is, if not "hateful", completely and utterly dickish.

As said numerous times before...people are free to be dicks

And I'm free to call them colossal flaming dicks

That's fine, you're free to call them dicks when they're being dicks which they clearly were. You are not, however, free to vandalize their property and then cry when the city decides not to give you the opportunity anymore.
 
You are argument has nothing to do with my argument. It doesn't matter to me whether or not it was a nativity scene, if it was Santa and his reindeer, or some naked wood nymph celebrating her pagan holiday. The point I am arguing is this isn't free speech, it's not about giving the atheist the same rights as anyone else,

But it IS. You are persistently arguing in favor of SPECIAL privileges to use a public space, rather than equal rights to a public space.

but this is a bad atheist thinking that they are so ****ing entitled to the same thing as everyone else,

The atheists in question aren't acting entitled at all. Their actions contested another group which IS acting entitled (and your position is, in effect, supporting that false sense of entitlement).

they don't give a **** what they ruin.

The only major obvious problem with that being that they didn't ruin anything at all.

Get this through your head. In actual FACT, the atheists didn't vandalize, destroy, or remove any part of anyone else's display.

Is this getting through? Anyone home?

If, by YOUR reasoning, the mere presence of a contrary viewpoint somehow "ruins" a display...then we can just as easily say that the nativity display "ruins" the atheist display by its mere presence.

If you don't see that implication, then that indicates that you are continuing to treat the nativity scene (despite your protestation) as being entitled to special protections or insulation from contrary views.

But what I won't do is ruin a traditional Christmas display

NO ONE RUINED THE NATIVITY DISPLAY. You keep posting as if something was done to the display. That simply didn't happen. The nativity display was completely unharmed. Later, it was removed along with ALL the displays in response to vandalism against the display of the atheists.

because my ****ing feelers got hurt every time I walked by the park and saw a nativity scene. What next? Take a lollipop from a child because it's shaped like a cross.

NOTHING WAS TAKEN. Again, your posts are becoming more hysterical despite clear access to information which disproves your claims.

The Facts:
Multiple displays by atheists were vandalized.
The nativity display was unharmed.
The displays -- all of them -- were removed by order of the city government in response to vandalism against the atheist displays.

Your Position:
It was a "dick move" on the part of the atheists to "ruin" the Nativity display.

Problem:
The atheists *didn't do anything at all to the nativity display*.

Do you see the disconnect here?
 
Except it wasn't the atheists who got the displays canceled. It was the folk who vandalized the atheist's display. So your anger is misplaced.

My anger is not displaced. Both party's were idiot's. Fact is it could have just been some children who did the vandalizing because they have Christian parents. Fact is we don't know. So yes both party's are to blame, period.
 
It's important to remember the facts here - there were various spaces and the city held a lottery drawing to determine who got them. The atheists won a few spaces which they used to spread their ideas. Christians got their panties in a wad and committed acts of vandalism. That's what led to the city deciding to end the practice.

You are assuming it was adults when it probably was teens or kids. So saying it is indeed a "fact" is not entirely correct.

If whoever vandalized the atheist displays had displayed a little Christianity, it would still be going on. That's the moron who wrecked it all for everyone - someone who couldn't deal with the fact that someone had a different point of view.

I disagree. Had things like the "mythology" statement not been put up, a problem most likely would not have gone to that level. When you attack someones belief, you in all likelihood will get the same results. I mean imagine the uproar is Chritians had posted something like...

All atheists will burn in hell. Happy holidays.
 
My anger is not displaced. Both party's were idiot's. Fact is it could have just been some children who did the vandalizing because they have Christian parents. Fact is we don't know. So yes both party's are to blame, period.

Exactly how are "both parties to blame" for exercising their Constitutional rights?
There is no evidence to suggest the vandal(s)s (whoever they may be) were forced to commit the criminal acts in question.It is the vandal(s),and they alone,who are to blame.
 
My anger is not displaced. Both party's were idiot's. Fact is it could have just been some children who did the vandalizing because they have Christian parents. Fact is we don't know. So yes both party's are to blame, period.

but a distinction begs to be made
only those who vandalized the atheists' exhibits engaged in illicit behavior
 
That's fine, you're free to call them dicks when they're being dicks which they clearly were. You are not, however, free to vandalize their property and then cry when the city decides not to give you the opportunity anymore.

I agree regarding the vandalizing. Also a dickish move...as I've suggested.

Similar, the dolts vandalizeing the Athiest signs make those against the athiests actions look dumb.

And those pulling down a pentagram are in the wrong as well. Vandalism of someone else's stuff is wrong, regardless of their reasons.

Those who vandalized them are adolescent buffoons who should be ashamed of themselves.

Attempting to hinder, by putting up non-topical, if not directly adversarial displays, or prohibit, by attempting to get a specific display banned/entire celebration banned, the presence or practice of utilizing public ground to celebrate the holiday seasons is by definition not showing "tolerance".

(note...neither is vandalizing displays of others, especially those that are being tolerant and acting in accordance to the activities theme)

That said, not everyone whose "crying" that the city isn't giving them an oppertunity anymore are the ones that vandalized it. I agree though, those who are JUST blaming the athiest groups for causing the holiday decorations to no longer be allowed don't have much ground to stand on for their complaints.

However, those just blaming "thiests" also don't have much ground.

You had a place allowing for the public to put up HOLIDAY celebration displays on public property and had been doing so for many years. You had a group rallying others of like mind to purposefully attempt to hinder and disrupt said celebration by gaining spots and placing up things that not only had nothing to do with a holiday celebration, but were meant to be outright hostile and/or antagonistic to the various religious AND NON RELIGIOUS celebrations occuring there. Not shockingly, this dick moved inspired others to do escalating dickish things such as vandalizing them. While that doesn't excuse the vandals actions, it does play a part in it. They turned the situation into an antagonistic one in the first place, and then the other side raised the stakes, and ultimately the whole thing got shut down because two sides of adults decided they wanted to act like ****ing children.

The Facts....

The space and property and program had been used for years for the purpose of putting up holiday decorations for the public to enjoy on public land.
Athiest groups attempted to gain multiple plots used for these decorations and proceeded to put up a number of decorations pertaining in no way to any winter holiday and often times specifically antagonistic to those celebrating those holidays
Some of those displays were than vandalized by people
The city government ordered the removal of all the displays

It was a dick move to purposefully attempt to turn an area of holiday celebration into an antagonistic battle front of church vs state and faith vs reason
It was a dick, and illegla, move to vandalize those decorations
It was a sad but understandable action by the government to end the whole thing because two sides acted like bloody 3 year olds and the city government had to act like the parent taking the toy away from the kids.

Athiests did nothing to the nativity display...they did do something however to the general holiday celebration, specifically they attempted to turn it into an ideological battle ground rather than an area of holiday celebration.
 
I see no hate in saying "happy holidays" at a place that is purpoesfully meant to be for holiday decorations
However I do feel there is a certain amount of hate involved in terms of signs declaring Santa a myth or degrading the notion of religion at a place that is purpoesfully meant to be for holiday decorations.

Your basic mistake is that you are privileging religious displays as having some kind of superior claim to "holidays" over nonreligious ones.

Legally AND ethically speaking, they don't.

The notion that it is hateful to promote the value of accuracy is rather peculiar.

I often see people push the notion that it is cruel to let small children know there is no Santa Claus. I take the opposite stance; I find it cruel and rather transparently manipulative and selfish to deceive children into belief in Santa Claus for the sake of effectively bribing them into decent behavior through promise of material gain.

Albeit with a wider range of bells and whistles, I see theism and many forms of religion in the same light. I can point to all manner of atrocities, crimes, deceptions, and barbaric practices anchored in full or in part to different flavors of theistic religious doctrines, but I'm hard pressed to think of any clear examples of harm genuinely traceable to insistence upon accuracy and transparency.

In any case, as I pointed out to Chaddelamancha, if it is a "dick move" for a display expressing or urging a contrary view to be present, then logically this would mean it's every bit as much a "dick move" on the part of the folks promoting the nativity display to have a display knowing that there will be other displays present. This, I should hope, is clearly seen as a silly conclusion.

The mere presence of contrary views is not dickish or mean or cruel. Instead, it is the unwarranted sense of entitlement on the part of those whose dogmas have gone unchallenged for a long time (for example, for 60+ years) in their *privileged* used of a public space...which has led to them developing a collective glass ego.

Going out of your way to try and gather up as many people as possible to purposefully grab as many of the spots as you can, in hopes of hindering others from having a chance to put up holiday decorations, and then to put up signs that have nothing to do with celebrating the holidays at all but rather do nothing but criticize religion and/or outright working to specifically and purposefully spoil peoples holiday seasons is, if not "hateful", completely and utterly dickish.

As said numerous times before...people are free to be dicks

And I'm free to call them colossal flaming dicks

Yes to both...just as I'm free to point out what a glaring case of hypocrisy it is in your part to privilege the religious displays in that manner.

The unreasonable expectation on the part of the nativity display group -- in which they got used to having no contrary views presented -- led to an unwarranted sense of entitlement to what was a public space. This is a common phenomenon, but that doesn't make it any less mistaken.

Returning to my bus analogy, the public display space no more belongs to the nativity group (or ANY group) than a random bus seat (which a commuter usually gets five days a week). The expectation of possession --which includes the unwarranted expectation that just because they've had free reign for X amount of time, they should continue to have free reign -- is a mistake on the part of the nativity group.
 
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Exactly how are "both parties to blame" for exercising their Constitutional rights?

My statement as I have already pointed out has absolutely nothing to do with law or constitutional rights.

There is no evidence to suggest the vandal(s)s (whoever they may be) were forced to commit the criminal acts in question.It is the vandal(s),and they alone,who are to blame.

This may be the case but it does not excuse the stupidity of making fun of religion on the holidays for no other reason than to be insulting.
 
Athiests did nothing to the nativity display...they did do something however to the general holiday celebration, specifically they attempted to turn it into an ideological battle ground rather than an area of holiday celebration.

Wrong. It was already an ideological battle ground. One side -- the privileged one -- was just used to encountering no resistance.

This is the exact same mistake as made by those who falsely claim that attempts to raise taxes on the rich are "starting" a class war. No...they're not starting a class war; they are participating in class warfare that's already built into the system imposed upon them. The rich have been and continue to be engaged in class war, but they usually don't run into any kind of significant resistance.
 
but a distinction begs to be made
only those who vandalized the atheists' exhibits engaged in illicit behavior

My argument or statement has nothing to do with the legal or illegal nature of the vandalism, nothing at all. It has to do with a mean spirited and tasteless attack on religion for no other purpose than to insult a belittle, as well as the vandalism being a similar act.
 
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