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Thread: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

  1. #71
    Professor cmakaioz's Avatar
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Monserrat View Post
    Opposition? Atheists don't believe in God(s), it doesn't really make them the opposition...

    I'm a fan of calling things what they are. Stepping in on a long standing community tradition that isn't hurting anyone but rather bringing together families is unnecessary and cruel, there's no point to it. The man was being a dick.
    You really just don't seem to get it. The atheists putting up of their own display doesn't step on anything but the completely unwarranted sense of entitlement of a handful of people with a collective glass ego.

    Perhaps you don't realize the premise you're implying (or at least going along with). You are effectively suggesting that the mere presence of a different or opposing view somehow damages or undermines the enjoyment of the nativity display. **IF** that's the case, that suggests a fatal weakness in the belief and personality of those setting up and visiting the nativity display, and nothing (for better or worse) about the display of the atheists (or the atheists themselves).
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    I completely understand why the city shut it down, but to put all of the blame on the vandalism is wrong.
    Umm if they didn't vandalize the displays, then the city wouldn't have shut the whole thing down. So yes, the WHOLE blame lies with the vandals since ALL the displays would have been allowed otherwise.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Umm if they didn't vandalize the displays, then the city wouldn't have shut the whole thing down. So yes, the WHOLE blame lies with the vandals since ALL the displays would have been allowed otherwise.
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    Damn them Christians for their want of spreading the joy of the season!
    You're right, the atheists there don't owe me anything, but when you are trying to present a message,
    But nothing. They don't owe you (or anyone) a damn thing. They don't need to tiptoe around anyone's entitlement issues, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    when and how you do that affects the message.
    You can pretend like you don't know the intent, but it is loud and clear.
    Actually, that's not pretense. NEITHER of us knows their intent...but that's a moot point because their intent doesn't @#$@#%@ matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    They were probably besides themselves with glee when their displays were vandalized. hell, i wouldn't put it past them to vandalize their own displays.
    This was a pathetic display by the atheists and has done nothing but harm the families who enjoyed going to that park and filling themselves with Christmas cheer. Way to go atheists!
    So, once again, the core premises of YOUR position boil down to the following:

    Assertion of ill intent on the part of the atheists;
    Assertion of nefarious machination on the part of the atheists (i.e. hoping for their display to be vandalized);
    Misattribution of action (i.e. the CITY government responded to vandalism against the atheist display by shutting all the displays down...but you continue to frame this as a matter of problematic action by the atheists...)

    Yeah...that's clear as mud.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    You really just don't seem to get it. The atheists putting up of their own display doesn't step on anything but the completely unwarranted sense of entitlement of a handful of people with a collective glass ego.

    Perhaps you don't realize the premise you're implying (or at least going along with). You are effectively suggesting that the mere presence of a different or opposing view somehow damages or undermines the enjoyment of the nativity display. **IF** that's the case, that suggests a fatal weakness in the belief and personality of those setting up and visiting the nativity display, and nothing (for better or worse) about the display of the atheists (or the atheists themselves).
    I have suggested none of that

    Atheists do not believe in God, they do not have a collective creed to spread messages about they do not need to post messages about another religion which they do not believe in. The fact that one atheist and those that he organized chose a time and a place where practicing Christians have a longstanding tradition of coming together to celebrate their faith with their families in peace, to place signs about that religion says a lot...

    He's an asshole. But like I said, he has a legal right to be one.
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    But nothing. They don't owe you (or anyone) a damn thing. They don't need to tiptoe around anyone's entitlement issues, either.
    Never said they did. You can keep trying to push this, but I have never tried to make that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Actually, that's not pretense. NEITHER of us knows their intent...but that's a moot point because their intent doesn't @#$@#%@ matter.
    Intent does matter when you are attempting to deliver a message.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    So, once again, the core premises of YOUR position boil down to the following:

    Assertion of ill intent on the part of the atheists;
    Assertion of nefarious machination on the part of the atheists (i.e. hoping for their display to be vandalized);
    Misattribution of action (i.e. the CITY government responded to vandalism against the atheist display by shutting all the displays down...but you continue to frame this as a matter of problematic action by the atheists...)

    Yeah...that's clear as mud.
    My premise is that they ruined a 60 year Christmas tradition just to promote their anti-religion message. That makes them dicks and terrible atheists. Had they just wanted to display non-religious seasonal greetings, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
    Hail to the King baby!

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    These atheist are what give us a bad name. You can't stand to see a nativity scene? Really? You going to get Christmas banned altogether? The whole holiday is based on pagan foundations, so to fight any part of the holiday is to effectively fight the entire holiday. It's silly, it's petty, and it's not what any decent atheist would/should do. Pathetic.
    Similar, the dolts vandalizeing the Athiest signs make those against the athiests actions look dumb.

    That said...I agree completely with you general idea here. How about, if you dislike the notion of a nativity up as a christmas display and you have your own section, that you use your section to celebrate the secular traditions of the holiday instead? What the **** does "anti-god" posters have to do, AT ALL, with celebrating Christmas...be it the traditional holiday or the secular one?

    As part of the public that is not significantly religious, I would be FAR more receptive to someone using local public property to put up a nativity display during CHRISTMAS than I would a bunch of "anti-god" signs, because at least that actually corresponds to the reason the land is being open to public use....because of the celebratoin of December Holidays.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Monserrat View Post
    I have suggested none of that

    Atheists do not believe in God, they do not have a collective creed to spread messages about they do not need to post messages about another religion which they do not believe in.
    True...but they have neither the need nor the obligation to REFRAIN from doing so, and those who ARE religious are NOT owed any special deference or insulation from critique.

    It doesn't matter if the nativity had been on display for 6 years or 6 minutes or 6 centuries. It doesn't matter if little kids were involved or not. All that nonsense is completely irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monserrat View Post
    The fact that one atheist and those that he organized chose a time and a place where practicing Christians have a longstanding tradition of coming together to celebrate their faith with their families in peace, to place signs about that religion says a lot...
    It MAY, but (just as with the other hysterical speculations), it may simply be a matter of relevance. The use of the PUBLIC SPACE to host a nativity scene is no better or worse than using it to pose a question or challenge about the beliefs related to that scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monserrat View Post
    He's an asshole. But like I said, he has a legal right to be one.
    I don't see anyone arguing that it was illegal, so that too is irrelevant.

    As for him being an asshole...what on earth is your basis for that assessment, if not your privileging of the religious folks who put up the nativity scene?

    For example, if there was an atheist display put up first, and then some religious folks put up a nativity scene afterwards, would the folks who set up the nativity scene suddenly become the assholes?

    The nativity scene isn't owed any special deference or veneration. The atheist display was quite mild. Folks in the U.S. often seem to have this completely unwarranted notion that no longer tiptoeing around religious displays is tantamount to aggressively mocking them or going out of one's way to provoke hostility.

    If the atheist display was something genuinely obnoxious (like a sign saying "Mary was a whore! HAHAHAHA!"), then...MAYBE I could see calling him an asshole. But simply putting up a display inviting people to examine their views...how is that in any way ass-hole-ish?
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  9. #79
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray410 View Post
    There is no denying that atheists cannot stand for others to have the faith in God that the atheists lack. Actually, it's far beyond that, atheists are enraged that others have faith. Atheists are always on the attack. Much of that rage and hate appears to be the pathology of the homosexuals who have been demanding others not have faith for 40 years, but there is more.

    Why would that be? Why wouldn't atheists simply mind their own business and keep their lack of beliefs to themselves and not worry about what others believe? Contrary to their constant braying, atheists are not inconvenienced by the fact that others display their faith. Often their mantra is separation of church and state or some other such terrible event that will happen if others are allowed to have faith in God.

    Atheists are truly pitiful, doomed creatures with nothing of substance to offer civilized society. The rest of us thank God that we are not in those circumstances.

    Bull ****! The problem is the xians demanding special accommodations for their faith and when they are called out for this behaviour, they claim persecution. Bloody hell! Xians are the majority in this nation. In some places you can see a church on every block, (not in big cities but in some places) Why then do the xians demand that they and they alone be allowed to use public space for their specific faith? No one is blocking the various religions from putting up what ever display they wish - as long as it is not on land owned by the public.

    Atheists are not on the "attack", they are finally after many years of staying quiet simply asking for equal rights - yet for some reason equal rights for atheists is seen as an attack on those all too often special rights that xians have claimed for years in this nation.

    You and "others are allowed to have faith in God." No atheist, individual or group is saying you can't hold any faith and irrational belief you want but why should you be the only ones allowed to use public facilities for proselytization?

    "Contrary to their constant braying, atheists are not inconvenienced by the fact that others display their faith." Really? It depends on what part of this country you live in. When state legislatures pass laws that allow a business owner to fire an employee simply because of the employee's faith or lack thereof, when bills are enacted that allow an employer to control the health decisions of their employees based on the employer's religious beliefs AND when those laws are used by an atheist to fire or control the actions of employees - THEN you will have a valid complaint.

    and what do "homosexuals" have to do with atheism?
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    Never said that, my point is where does it stop?
    It stops at public property, paid for in part by athiest tax dollars.

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