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Thread: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    I "mentioned slavery" as it related to whether or not there are any known words from the person known as Jesus of Nazareth (if he existed or not) concerning slavery. It was a very short statement on that one matter. To attempt to conflate that with me 'supporting' slavery does seem to be a bit of a stretch, an attempt to defend one (perhaps never was) person for their failure to talk about slavery by making an accusation against me based on a rather weak attempt at comparison of statements or non-statements as it were. My one sentence is somehow to be considered equal to all of the words attributed to the man known as Jesus - interesting.
    Yes. it is interesting that because someone does not take a position on an issue, you define the issue for them. Not uncommon either.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    I agree - read the damn(ed) book
    I have, thanks. That's why I'm no longer a Christian.

    Where in the New Testament is Jesus quoted as saying anything about homosexuality, either negative or positive?
    Jesus doesn't mention homosexuality directly, positively or negatively. He does, however, emphasize that nothing in the Old Testament, and that includes prohibitions against homosexuality, stops applying.

    Where in the New Testament does Jesus say anything about slavery and whether was he for it or against?
    There are several passages in the New Testament that support slavery.

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

    Jesus gives a parable where he clearly approves of punishing slaves even if they weren't aware they were doing anything wrong.

    The slave will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48)

    In many circles, silence, when confronted with evil indicates support.
    And if he had been silent, if he hadn't confirmed that Old Testament prohibitions were still in place, you might have a point. Too bad he did.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Monserrat View Post
    They're counting charitable donations.
    They're counting money given directly to churches and thrown in collection plates, which may or may not be used charitably and may be used for church maintenance which is not charity. Because they do not factor out the money that is not used charitably, it's already a skewed study. You just keep using it because it's skewed your direction.

    Every study has their drawbacks and it's important to look at that but I get the feeling that you don't really care about anything they say unless it paints religious (or maybe just christian) people in a bad light.
    No, I expect a fair and equitable study that relies on facts. When it is so absurdly easy to find faults with the study, to point out where they went wrong, I must reject the study for faulty metrics, not for it's conclusion.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Which would leave 2/3 given by... what?
    Yeah... by what? Religious? Non-religious? You don't know.

    Second wealthiest, but yes, I'm aware. The fact remains, the richest people tend to be non-religious and also tend to give far more money away than the religious.
    In your opinion...
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It used Christianity when it brought in more donations, now that it no longer does so, it dropped the name.
    Prove it or admit you are wrong...
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I have, thanks. That's why I'm no longer a Christian.
    Actually you could not prove that by the wrong information you have posted about it. Looks more like selective searching on the internet to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Jesus doesn't mention homosexuality directly, positively or negatively. He does, however, emphasize that nothing in the Old Testament, and that includes prohibitions against homosexuality, stops applying.
    No. He defines marriage as it was meant to be quite plainly ...

    Matthew 19:4-6 :4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

    I don't think it could have been put any clearer. And in the time you are mentioning he most certainly did follow the old law. He was Jewish, what he did not like (according to scripture) was the way the Pharisees perverted the law for their own wants, not that of God. It clearly states men sleeping with men were wrong even if they did not call it "homosexuality" which is a modern term, not ancient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    There are several passages in the New Testament that support slavery.

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

    Jesus gives a parable where he clearly approves of punishing slaves even if they weren't aware they were doing anything wrong.

    The slave will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48)
    You try and quote scripture with absolutely no real understanding of the history or purpose. Slavery was a Roman institution, and governed by Roman law. Jesus never got involved or raised a hand etc against Rome or it's laws, ever. If he had spoken out directly against slavery or against Roman law, he would have been jailed and possibly executed much, much sooner. Instead he gave those who were Jewish and held slaves guidelines for masters and slaves, which at the time were revolutionary as treatment of slaves and relationship with masters went. This was also only given to followers and not the general populous for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And if he had been silent, if he hadn't confirmed that Old Testament prohibitions were still in place, you might have a point. Too bad he did.
    They are no longer in place. He said until it was finished. When he died, it was finished. A new covenant was given to all men, not just his chosen people. So again you are completely of course biblically and historically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Christians shouldn't have to defend their beliefs anyway, any more than any other group who is not doing any public harm should have to defend theirs.

    Christmas is a tradition enjoyed by most everyone and does no one any harm. In fact it only does good.

    Those who want to destroy it are not performing a public service.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    An agnostic atheist is like a Gay Republican. We all know they exist, however the two terms are contradictory. Atheism is the position that there is no such thing as supernatural activity a-la gods, fairies, elves etc. Theism is the position that those things do exist. Agnostics claim the position of 'I don't know'. That said, you can't say you don't know, and then somehow support the ONE atheistic claim that those things don't exist. You're simply an agnostic, a theist or an atheist.
    I am an agnostic atheist. I don't believe that there is a God but I would never discount the possibility that he/she exists either... Agnostics are not committed to believing either way. And my boyfriend is a gay Republican, so don't go there.

    Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact. The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but claims that the existence or nonexistence of such is unknown or cannot be known

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Yeah... by what? Religious? Non-religious? You don't know.
    I'm just going by what you said. You said 1/3 were religious. What is the other option?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    They're counting money given directly to churches and thrown in collection plates, which may or may not be used charitably and may be used for church maintenance which is not charity. Because they do not factor out the money that is not used charitably, it's already a skewed study. You just keep using it because it's skewed your direction.



    No, I expect a fair and equitable study that relies on facts. When it is so absurdly easy to find faults with the study, to point out where they went wrong, I must reject the study for faulty metrics, not for it's conclusion.
    How is that skewed in my favor? I provided a couple of different studies, one of them gets much of it's info from the IRS but even without the tithing they still came to the conclusion that the religious give more and they give more to secular charities than the secular folk do.

    Every study I have seen comes to the same overall conclusion that the religious and red states give more to charities.
    I believe half of the things I say and say half of the things I believe.

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